I just watched Bittersweet Motel for the first time yesterday. I'm a product of 3.0 so I have no idea what the scene was like in the previous versions. I get the impression from Bittersweet Motel that it has changed quite a bit though.

Has it? If so, what are the good and bad things about the 3.0 scene versus the previous versions?

That documentary was filmed in 97. I was 10 years old so not a first hand witness to the scene then, but from the video and my experiences at shows I don't think the scene has chaned to drastically. Still seems to be a mix of all different types of people from hippies to frat boys to lawyers. Dominated by males and people looking for a good time.

Couple of thoughts on things that have probably changed. Personally I do get a sence that people on lot and in shows genuinely feel lucky to be at any given show thy are at. Whether it is someone who saw 1.0 and 2.0 and thought phishs days were over, or someone like me who was too young to see them and never thought he would get to. That feeling matched with the obvious happiness of the band creates an energy that I don't know could've been present even in 97 when the music itself was top notch.

Party scene...probably a few new drugs around since 97, but I don't think too much has changed here. Maybe more pharmy rats as benzos and painkillers have certainly bbecome the drugs of this decade. Also most people within 2-3 ears of my age for some reason think drinking and getting blacked out drunk are the same thing. with that said I think there are a ton more people getting stupid drunk at shows.

again wasn't around in 97 so pure speculation here.

in the mid to late 90's, i used to go to shows without a ticket and ALWAYS get one for face value. it was never a problem. those days are gone. i paid a lot to see them at the garden last weekend.

The scene I've seen is 3.0 to, and boy, its the best bunch of people I've ever seen.

Someone was giving out free hugs after the show!

After being at MSG last week, i can definitely say that there are more and hotter women going to shows. I think the break-up enabled some dudes to grow up and get attractive girlfriends/wives.

I too feel that the "scene" has not so much changed, but like someone else said, evolved. These days it's an amazing mix of young and young at heart. It reminds me of '95-'96 when I first started seeing Phish, in that there is more of a community feel that seemed to be lost when they blew-up from '97-'04. Those years did seem to have a rash of "party first, music second", and I'll admit that I was part of it which sucks because there was some amazing stuff being done on stage. The "break" did allow them to shed some of the rif-raf that was around before, those who had to continue the party and latched-on white knuckled to something else (thank you electronica for taking them). It's a bit more pure now with those of us who waited it out side-by-side with those of you who have recently jumped in head first.

The biggest difference I see is in the expectations of the band amongst the crowd, having everything to do with this inter-web thing. Not saying its a bad thing, just that going to a show in the middle of a tour having no idea what had been played or how it was played the previous few nights seemed to bring a collective anticipation and excitement throughout the crowd strictly based on what was happening right then, more-so than there is now. With instant access to everything it's amazing these guys can come out and sound fresh, fairly unpredictable and leave us in awe night after night, tour after tour. I love being able to listen to a show instantly from a thousand miles away because it feeds that Phish jones more days out of the year, but the next time I have tickets to a show I may ban myself from places such as this and livephish.com a month or so before hand just to see if I personally get that amazing lift of anticipation as I walk through the turnstile. It's still there, just not as high. Don't know if it would be possible, but might be worth a try.

All-in-all I love it still, maybe more than ever. Positive vibes and high-fives all around.

I guess what I'm truly amazed by is how the band can attract new fans. It's a timelessness that I think few bands could ever have.

GApparatus, well done. You hit it on the head. In particular your points regarding the internet. While the internet does create higher expectations from night to night it had also helped bridge the gap during the break up. Fans like Ivy_light and thousands of others would have had a very hard time getting so into the scene. I remember being lost at my first show in 96 and the only way to learn anything was word of mouth. And we all know that fans are not always welcoming to noobs. Regardless, I think the scene is fairly healthy. The shorter tours with longer breaks are welcomed by this guy. It will help keep the rats away!

Was it really not all that welcoming? I feel welcomed with open arms. But then again, maybe it's just the amazing phish.net

Has the type of phan changed much? Has it always been a mixture of hippie kids and frat boys and lawyers?

All great points made so far. Most of my shows (40 or so) were in the "1.0" era so I feel someone should acknowledge the proverbial "big white elephant in the room". Which is...

At the beginning there was a definate Grateful Dead Shadow hanging over the whole scene. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of Phisheads who didn't care for The Dead at all, but especially in the early '90s when both bands were touring simultaneously, many Phish shows resembeled mini-Dead lot scenes. A glaring example is when they played Deer Creek in '95. That was only 2 weeks before The Dead hit Deer Creek. There were people at that show trying to score tickets...for The Dead. Half the shirts, stickers, hell even the people, were ping-ponging back and forth between the 2. Alot of my friends "switched alliegences" in '95 and started to follow Phish out of disdain for the changing Dead scene (something I'd never do but whatever).

After Jerry died, it kind of went from being a Grateful Dead Shadow to almost a Grateful Dead Hangover of sorts for many people my age (roughly). There was a sentement that Phish was "all that was left" or "the next best thing" or whatever. Long story short there were still a slew of Deadheads (real-time Deadheads if that makes any sense) following the band. No surprise that the whole feel of the scene still had that "Grateful Deady" feel to it.

By 2000 it seemed like the scene was more actual Phisheads (this is starting to sound borderline stupid here I know) and less Deadheads following Phish. Take this for what it is, but this is about when I started to notice Opiates (painkillers mostly) and Extacy taking over the spot LSD and Voomers used to hold (balloons were always there from day one).

By "2.0" The Grateful Dead shadow/influence/cross-polinization/whatever seemed to be almost gone for the most part (I'm talking about "origional" Deadheads following the scene and bringing their "influence" . But the drugs were more part of it. The yucky drugs too, not the "good" psychedelic drugs. Oh they were there too...but not the main thing.

Today? I've only been to 2 shows in "3.0" but I noticed everything that was already said. More "mature" crowd, less scuzzy tour rats going from town to town, and in general a more mellow, fun, "responsible" vibe around the whole thing. Also higher ticket prices and for some reason more alcohol consumption (maybe because for many people who had to "grow up and settle down", alcohol became "the next best thing"...or "the only drug left" . But that's another discussion for another time (and another forum I'd hope).

Mind you this is just my opinion/observation which was made thru Skull and Rose colored glasses so feel free to disagree. Just my 2 cents on 3.0.

As @Jayem said, the internet has absolutely leveled the playing field for everyone going to a show whether it's your 1st or your 101st and that's a great thing. It was a bit intimidating trying to figure out the intricacies of the band back in the day. There wasn't a FAQ so you had to ask someone or ease drop a conversation, and a few of those in-the-know did have an arrogance when asked.

And yes, it's always been a melting pot. At any time you could find someone from any walk of life. Though in the late '90s it seemed that there was a bit more conformity, myself included.

@IenjoyMyself said:

Couple of thoughts on things that have probably changed. Personally I do get a sence that people on lot and in shows genuinely feel lucky to be at any given show thy are at. Whether it is someone who saw 1.0 and 2.0 and thought phishs days were over, or someone like me who was too young to see them and never thought he would get to.

This is very true. Whether you're a band member, roadie, attendant or bus driver, i'm sure they all feel lucky to be where they are. It also seems like the band has grown up immensely from the mid 90s. Trey doesn't have the ego that appears in some earlier interviews, the band seems much more happy, and clean at that.

@jackl said:

@lumpblockclod said:

The main difference between today (or any era) and what you saw in Bittersweet Motel can be chalked up pretty much entirely to selective inclusion.

Other than that, the "scene" is probably a bit older today than it was then, but it's filled with the same types of people, good and bad.

Yeah, that's a good point, Steve. "Bittersweet Motel" pissed off a lot of fans at the time (me included) because many of us felt it was a deliberate "hatchet job" on Phish fans. Like reality TV show producers, the Bittersweet Motel people went out and found the biggest spun out dumbasses on the lot and presented them as the "average Phish fan". For those of us who were working on serious projects like the Phish Companion books or this website, the Bittersweet Motel portrayal of "fans" was a poke in the eye that was unappreciated by most. I hate that movie and found it unrepresentative of the fans then and now, although corresponding to the lazy "hippie" journalistic trope.

I don't understand why the Phish org cooperated with Phillips in the making of that film. The things I remember about the band (cutting off people's heads in photos, "piss in the fans ears" were not particularly flattering, and I thought somewhat selective and meanspirited.

Couldn't agree more. That movie comes up short in so many ways. I'm waiting for some phans with filming backgrounds to document a tour. Phillips couldn't even get good music clips from shows during arguably there best tour.

@jackl said:

I hate that movie and found it unrepresentative of the fans then and now, although corresponding to the lazy "hippie" journalistic trope.

I don't understand why the Phish org cooperated with Phillips in the making of that film. The things I remember about the band (cutting off people's heads in photos, "piss in the fans ears" were not particularly flattering, and I thought somewhat selective and meanspirited.

I won't go so far as to say I *hate* it. There's some good footage, interesting parts, etc. But you're right of course about the reality TV techniques. As for the cutting off of the people's heads.....I always like to think that that's one of those moments they wish they could have back. The other stuff (the chicks in the front row, pissing in the fan's ears) all had an element of humor to it, albeit with a bit of an edge. But the cutting off people's heads has always just seemed mean-spirited to me.

@ivy_light said:

So what I'm catching here is that Bittersweet Motel ain't all that great of a representation of the scene back in the day. That's exactly why I asked.

Well, it was representative of **part** of the scene, then as now. But it would be like presenting Antelope Greg as the average Phish fan. The "truth", sort of, but not the "whole truth", so possibly misleading?

It is super disapointing because I think the mission of this documentary for Phish was to explain themselves and "the scene" and I think that maybe why they agreed to do this with a non Phan, because there would be no bias. However this guy seems like he just wanted to make a movie about people getting fucked up and going to concerts.

Being 34 and from Germany I had not so many chances to see the band live but I was able to catch shows in all 3 phases. 3 in 1.0 (97/98) - EU shows so very relaxed and cool crowd as you can see in bittersweet. 6 in 2.0 (03/04) - not so cool as the crowd was young and crowdy especially in vegas. seems like not many people came for the music (which wasnt the best either). nevertheless it blew me away because seeing them in huge arenas was so different to my previous EU shows in front of 500 people. 9 in 3.0 (09/10) - I think they are awesome and the scene is quite ok. good mixture of phans from all phases. music and party goes hand in hand. one thing to add: I dont like the "anti-noobs talking" you hear from the old dogs as its a good thing new fans keep coming in. everyone who loves phish should be welcomed. its stupid to say that if you did not hear phish in the 90s you are not a true fan. those days wont come back and my feeling is that Phish has a long future so lets just enjoy they keep delivering great stuff...

I'd say the scene is much more the same than different comparing from 94/95 through current. @Furry_Thug first post nails it, imo. Some variations over time, a bit more sketch in the late 90s, but not strikingly different in any way.

There is less mystery around the lore of the band due to the internet. Gamehendge seemed like a much bigger deal to me back then. I mean, what other bands had a whole friggin fairy tale set to music? (Excellent music?) It was goofy, deep, and awesome all at once, and you had to put in some serious effort to figure out what the hell was going on. Tapes were mislabelled, lots of people didnt know the names to new songs. There was a lot more uncertainty, which was kind of fun. I took more detailed notes at shows then, because I didnt have this place to recap the next day!

There was certainly more of a crossover from the GD scene back then, as @MJZ points out. But it wasn't all that overwhelming to us non-GD peeps. I (and most of my friends) was there for phish. We were doing our own thing, not intentionally trying to carry on a different tradition.

As for the party, well it was always a party. A great big party organized around the strong likliehood that you'd experience musical transcendence. An event, chance to escape, reunite, celebrate. That to me has not changed at all.

@johnnyd said:

I'd say the scene is much more the same than different comparing from 94/95 through current. @Furry_Thug first post nails it, imo. Some variations over time, a bit more sketch in the late 90s, but not strikingly different in any way.

There is less mystery around the lore of the band due to the internet. Gamehendge seemed like a much bigger deal to me back then. I mean, what other bands had a whole friggin fairy tale set to music? (Excellent music?) It was goofy, deep, and awesome all at once, and you had to put in some serious effort to figure out what the hell was going on. Tapes were mislabelled, lots of people didnt know the names to new songs. There was a lot more uncertainty, which was kind of fun. I took more detailed notes at shows then, because I didnt have this place to recap the next day!

There was certainly more of a crossover from the GD scene back then, as @MJZ points out. But it wasn't all that overwhelming to us non-GD peeps. I (and most of my friends) was there for phish. We were doing our own thing, not intentionally trying to carry on a different tradition.

As for the party, well it was always a party. A great big party organized around the strong likliehood that you'd experience musical transcendence. An event, chance to escape, reunite, celebrate. That to me has not changed at all.

true true well said.

there was less nitrous when I went - and no one was on adderall, and I never head the words Molly, heady, wook

@YorkvilleBeerLover said:

there was less nitrous when I went - and no one was on adderall, and I never head the words Molly, heady, wook

I thought it was just my friends - when did everyone start taking adderall? And why? My guess is so they can drink more. Just curious.

@buffalobill4 said:

I totally agree with the anti-noob mentality. I love finding out at shows that it's someones first show, it's our responsibility as veteran fans to teach them the subtle ways of the phish community. In the Phish biography it talked about our crowd being the rebellious teenager that didn't know how to take care of each other in the 90's, and how we didn't have a "father figure" the way the grateful dead did. I believe what you're seeing now is a grown up crowd that truly respects and is thankful for what we have; which is a sober band that focuses on the music, and a crowd that respects their surroundings and each other. I personally enjoyed a lot of the music from 2.0 but the scene was so dark and disconnected by drugs and ill intent. I love being apart of the new transition and sharing the scene with all people with good intent. Happy new year, and can't wait til the summer!

Good post and I'm very glad the band decided to take initiative and clean things up a bit.

it's a revolving cast, but the same old game

http://phish.net/song/show-of-life/lyrics

Yes the scene has changed dramatically over the years. When I first started seeing shows the audience was primarily made up of college kids as that was where Phish was drawing its fans base from. They played many shows at colleges in the early 90's. Most of us who were following Phish at that time were seeing bands like the Grateful Dead and Phish was this band you would go and see in between Dead tours. There was no "Phish Tour" as they were always on the road. This scene didn't change much as they made the jump to theaters.

Around 94, when they started playing arenas and sheds the scene changed again with an influx of 12 and 14 year old kids who were being dropped off at shows by soccer moms. I started to feel like a fossil and I was only 24 or 25 at the time.

Then Jerry died and there was another wave of folks who jumped on the band wagon. By this time it was over for me. I attended a show here and there but it just wasn't the same.

3.0 is a whole different story. Everyone has grown up a bit and it feels like people are there for the music.....not the party....band included. Believe me, I like a good party, but you know what I mean. Last year’s Hartford show 8-14-09 showed me that they can still bring it and I've been hooked ever since.....just like the old days.

Finally, the new material is outstanding and it is good to see that they are serious about writing.....songs. I love songs like KDF, Ocelot. Some of the later efforts (Round Room, Undermind) just seemed forced and didn't do it for me at all.

In all I think it is more like it was and less like it is.