I've tried to ignore getting involved in any of this for quite some time now. For multiple reasons I have been neglecting .net for the past couple of months. Part of it is I work so damn much, another reason is the .net camp group on FB, that many of us here are a part of. We have grown really tight with each other in recent weeks and frankly, it saddens me that that love and comradery, that I felt over here for the longest time, has been absent. Or at least lost in a daze of pissing matches, over inlfated egos and self indulgence. It saddens me even more that many fine folks have been lost due to these cirumstances, for a variety of reasons, and yes, we are all adults and people make their own choices about weather they want to participate here or not, and leaving is their choice, but I can't help but feel that everyone here is responsible.

I'm sure as hell not gonna point fingers and say so and so shouldn't have done/said this or that, and this person is being too sensitive, God knows thats been done to death. But what I will say, with a fair amount of confidence, is it seems like we are all missing the point here, or have been steered off track a bit.

I've been using .net since the late '90's as a setlist tool. Not having a group of friends to enjoy Phish with for much of my life has left me few options to see whats been going on with tour, as far as the music is concerned. I just started posting last Summer and quickly found this place to be a fullfilling envrionment for my Phish obsessions. I was so quickly sucked in, partly due to my "avatar" issue (http://forum.phish.net/?thread=1284572337) and it's subsequent resolution (http://forum.phish.net/?thread=1284656678), @julesmac, this is in no way to bring up old shit but to prove a point that will be made later in this thread. It seemed as if not even a year ago, things could be resloved thoughtfully, intelligently, without personal attacks and democratically. I truly found this inspiring and it furthered my faith, not only in the Phish community but in a virtual community where anonymity can sometimes breed iggnorance. I never in a hundred years though I would become one of those "internet forum" people you hear about, but I was instantly hooked. Addicted. I found a home for my Phish obsession.

Over the coming months I formed "friendships" with people online, checking in everyday, not only to get my Phish fix but to see what these people where up to. After Fall tour, this continued. Over time I formed a bond, with among others, @lenjoymyself, and it was decided we were gonna hit the Worcester shows together. Wow, meeting up with an internet person? Sounds shaky, but it went amazingly. I met a handful of .netters at Worcester, @Trev_917, @wattznext, @forbins0218, @yoursongtoo, @castinajig, @ivy_light, @phishfoodeater, @johnnyd, @The_Slothelot, @joechip and yes, even @PhishSince94. What an amazing experiance to meet and hang with these people that I had shared many of my fondest Phish memories with and in turn got a piece of their soul. It seemed like this was another golden age for Phish.net. I heard stories about how great it was in the '90's and how it feel off a bit, especially during those "dark" Phish years. I felt blessed to be a part of it, and still do.

I'm not sure how, or even why it seems like there is more "shit" to wade through to get to the meat and potatos of why we're all here in the first place, and that one and only reason is Phish. The greatest band of my generation. A band that only comes around once in a lifetime and we get to see them in their peak. Remember the first time you heard these guys? That feeling you had when it all clicked? You wanted to know everything about them. Hear every note they ever played, twice. Waiting for the next note was worse then a child trying to sleep on Chirstmas Eve. It was, and still is, intoxicating. And thats just the anticipation, the music effects you in completly diferent soul satisfying way. Fills your heart and mind with whatever is missing in your daily life, or just adds to the bliss you already share in.

What happened to us? When did we lose sight of this? Why did we lose sight of this? Is this just a cycle? The dark days of Winter that get everyone down a bit? Or is this something else? Something that gives us a glimpse into what we're becoming or have already become. I've seen this posted elsewhere, "These forums have cycles, where regular users cycle out and new ones come in and the tone of the forum changes." That very well be true, but I fear the day, and it may already be upon us, when that tone is negativity and contrite. Seems like many here are apologizing for being themselves or just trying to get a rise out of others for their own ammusment. I reject these ideas and propose something different, something better, much bigger then our egos.

A sense of understanding. For the world around us and the music that fills your cup. The music itself deserves that amount of respect, even if you feel like the people around you don't.

I say all this with the understanding that this is indeed a public forum, reagardless of the moderation that is being used. We all have a choice to participate, or not. I choose to particpate, and I hope you do too. I choose to believe that this isn't about me. It's about the music and the love and community this intangible life force can create. I choose to overlook pety arguments, selfish acts of self indulgence and "hey look at me" antics. Because once you wade through the bullshit there is alot of substance here. Something that has made my life more fullfilling and I can only hope to share in for many more moons.

This isn't an anonymous attack on anyone, and I sure as hell do not think that my way is the only right way. It's just my opinion and through my experiances here on .net the past 8-9 months, I firmly believe many share in this opinion. Weather it's been voiced or not. So for the sake of all that is holy, PLEASE, lets keep things in prespective. Use your best judgement before posting or commenting. Debate can only be healthy when there is respect invloved, and I think a little more respect could go a long way in creating a more healthy vibe here. All it takes is a scond of thought before you post. Try asking yourself, "What would Trey, Mike, Page or Fish think if they saw this?" That thought alone could go a long way in changing the tone here.

I love all of you. Weather I've met you, will be meeting you, had interactions with you, or not. We share a common bond that is stronger then most. It's the belief in music. I choose to put my faith in that, and in turn hope to get love in return.

Much Love ~ Ron

couldn't agree more, I've only been posting regularly for the last 3ish months and I have seen a major change in this. I have made many friendships, but I have witnessed a lot of harassment and hate on here.

Hate and negativity on a phish forum?!?!?!? seriously people, WTF???

btw Ron, there is a difference between the word weather and whether

@frownland said:

how many more of these soapbox speeches must we endure?

how much of your trolling must we endure? this is the negativity that all these "soapbox" speeches have been trying to remedy

@conradjohansen said:

@frownland said:

how many more of these soapbox speeches must we endure?

How many more of your dumb ass remarks do we have to endure?

How many more dumb ass threads pertaining to this, stupid clique, do we need?

@bostonron Thanks for the clear-minded words. I have been on hear for some time now and don't post very often and have noticed a little mood swing. Lets try and bring the good vibes back .net!!!

Thanks Ron for posting that.The way you described phish and the way they hook each phan was perfect IMO. I am fairly new here, but ever since I was told about this forum it has been the first site I look at everyday. It's been a great resource to learn more about the band, discuss experiences, and meet great people. I hope to meet lots of phellow .netters this summer. Eventhough I am new, I encourage everyone to also keep this place an enjoyable and friendly community of phans. For me personally, that's what phish and their music is all about.

I guess I don't get it...things have been alittle slow lately on here but other than that, I haven't picked up on the negativity at all (besides frownland occasionally). What am I missing?

@kingofprussia92 said:

What is the .net facebook camp?

The clique I was typing about.

I'm sick of being told what is OK to say and what is not OK to say.

Well said, Ron.

@bostonron said:

Try asking yourself, "What would Trey, Mike, Page or Fish think if they saw this?" That thought alone could go a long way in changing the tone here.

Absolutely. They've all been through crap, and they've pulled things back together. So can we.

And it doesn't matter IF they see it or not... it's just the idea.

@Frizz said:

@46daze said:

@Frizz said:

Oh and Phish wouldn't say anything. Rock stars don't frequents their bands nerdy fan forums.
Hahahaha!!

They have mentioned PT in concert and discussed specific users

Foot in mouth. But I find that..................sad?

Really? Because I find it to be a band interacting with their fan base and maintaining a level of mutual appreciation that has propelled them to where they are today and separates them from just about everyone else in the entertainment industry.

Did you all seriously vote Frownland's "how many more of these soapbox speeches do we have to endure?" comment down? Is that for real? What the fuck kind of forum is this where no one can express a contrary opinion? I, for one, found the original post to be super condescending, self-righteous, and totally uncalled for. I said this in another thread but this "voting people down" bullshit is absolutely ridiculous. A bunch of you guys all know each other and post all the time, and that is totally fine, but at the same time that means if someone disagrees with one of you, you can all band together and totally censor that person's viewpoint and that is just a flat out disgrace.

@julesmac said:

@bostonron said:

@julesmac, this is in no way to bring up old shit but to prove a point that will be made later in this thread. Much Love ~ Ron

let's get this show back on track

You really missed a Bag reference there.

How 'bout them Cubs?

@phrankG said:

Did you all seriously vote Frownland's "how many more of these soapbox speeches do we have to endure?" comment down? Is that for real? What the fuck kind of forum is this where no one can express a contrary opinion? I, for one, found the original post to be super condescending, self-righteous, and totally uncalled for. I said this in another thread but this "voting people down" bullshit is absolutely ridiculous. A bunch of you guys all know each other and post all the time, and that is totally fine, but at the same time that means if someone disagrees with one of you, you can all band together and totally censor that person's viewpoint and that is just a flat out disgrace.

Im right with you. To much whining going on!

@46daze said:

@Frizz said:

Oh and Phish wouldn't say anything. Rock stars don't frequents their bands nerdy fan forums. Hahahaha!!

They have mentioned PT in concert and discussed specific users

really, when?

@Faht1 said:

What would Phish think of all this?

That we were a bunch of wimps pouting about nothing!

Speaking of nothing. I was going to make a thread about Nothing. The song. I can't because of the stupid ass thumbs.

phrankG, they love to talk about themselves but make it sound as if they really care about others and Phish, when they actually care about neither. now, commence the thumbs down, f***ers.

@MiguelSanchez said:

@46daze said:

@Frizz said:

Oh and Phish wouldn't say anything. Rock stars don't frequents their bands nerdy fan forums. Hahahaha!!

They have mentioned PT in concert and discussed specific users

really, when?

http://www.mediafire.com/?1zmzzmuk0eo

Trey, '03.

I couldn't help it.

god didnt know we were having a heart to heart tonight hug it out and have a little drank of my LOVING CUP!!!

^^acceptance is the first step toward recovery...haha.

Would all you phags stop talking about your pheelings? Phuck...

@ivy_light said:

@listen4myHorn said:

I know if I wrote a long-winded post like the OP, I'd love all the comments being written. And I'd sit back and admire how everyone is posting on MY creation. I'd also check back frequently to see if it had been bumped back to the top. And I would feel very self satisfied.

Jesus, people. Ron's addressing a problem that has unfortunately been quite pervasive around here these days. This place welcomed my noob ass with open arms when I started contributing back in September. now, I've backed off on my posting because of the fear of being shot down as a noob again. It smacks of my first experience with PT (that's not to say that there aren't top notch people over there and that I haven't learned a lot from that forum). What one person sees as self-indulgent might just be cathartic to the original poster. We regulars are a bit confused by what's been going on here and hate to think that the Golden Age of .net has passed. We're standing around, dicks in the wind, wondering what the hell is going on. That is all. As for the FB group: It's a bunch of people who met here and at shows and wanted a place to chat. That's it. Should you think it's some kind of exclusive clique, you're wrong. Phish.net is my happy place. It's where I go to procrastinate, laugh, and sometimes cry. It's where I got to learn about my favorite band. It's where I go to share my passion for their music. Please don't take away my happy place.

i've been using this site and contributing to the forum for a good long while now. i just don't understand why other regulars can't just see stupid shit for what it is...stupid! when i see some jack ass when i'm out in the real world, i ignore it. i tend to the same on the internet.

do people really feel the "golden age" of phish.net is gone? really? it's a hell of a forum. it is head and shoulders above pt, especially as far as real intellectual phish conversations go.

as for slapping around noobs, well, sometimes it has to be done. when a noob speaks as if they are the authority on all things phish, well, they need to be put in their place. that doesn't mean go on a 5 paragraph tyrade about how they suck, but something simple like, "come on noob, quebec '94 is not the greatest show ever. laughable!" i've never seen anything that you've written that gave me that vibe, but i have seen some stuff floating around. a phish forum will always have noobs. that's awesome. i, along with many of you, welcome the noobs, just as long as they don't act like they know all things phish, even though they've only been listening for 18 monthes and have 5 shows under their belt.

@MiguelSanchez said:

@ivy_light said:

@listen4myHorn said:

I know if I wrote a long-winded post like the OP, I'd love all the comments being written. And I'd sit back and admire how everyone is posting on MY creation. I'd also check back frequently to see if it had been bumped back to the top. And I would feel very self satisfied.

Jesus, people. Ron's addressing a problem that has unfortunately been quite pervasive around here these days. This place welcomed my noob ass with open arms when I started contributing back in September. now, I've backed off on my posting because of the fear of being shot down as a noob again. It smacks of my first experience with PT (that's not to say that there aren't top notch people over there and that I haven't learned a lot from that forum). What one person sees as self-indulgent might just be cathartic to the original poster. We regulars are a bit confused by what's been going on here and hate to think that the Golden Age of .net has passed. We're standing around, dicks in the wind, wondering what the hell is going on. That is all. As for the FB group: It's a bunch of people who met here and at shows and wanted a place to chat. That's it. Should you think it's some kind of exclusive clique, you're wrong. Phish.net is my happy place. It's where I go to procrastinate, laugh, and sometimes cry. It's where I got to learn about my favorite band. It's where I go to share my passion for their music. Please don't take away my happy place.

i've been using this site and contributing to the forum for a good long while now. i just don't understand why other regulars can't just see stupid shit for what it is...stupid! when i see some jack ass when i'm out in the real world, i ignore it. i tend to the same on the internet.

do people really feel the "golden age" of phish.net is gone? really? it's a hell of a forum. it is head and shoulders above pt, especially as far as real intellectual phish conversations go.

as for slapping around noobs, well, sometimes it has to be done. when a noob speaks as if they are the authority on all things phish, well, they need to be put in their place. that doesn't mean go on a 5 paragraph tyrade about how they suck, but something simple like, "come on noob, quebec '94 is not the greatest show ever. laughable!" i've never seen anything that you've written that gave me that vibe, but i have seen some stuff floating around. a phish forum will always have noobs. that's awesome. i, along with many of you, welcome the noobs, just as long as they don't act like they know all things phish, even though they've only been listening for 18 monthes and have 5 shows under their belt.

Hey Ben 12/29/98 is mediocre compared to Quebec 94.

why do you feel compelled to tell the noobs anything? art (e.g. music) is subjective, so if a noob says quebec '94 is the greatest show ever, then it is, to them. you f***ers are control freaks. let it go.

God Frizz everyone knows Letterman is better... why do you insist on being such a fuckass?

@DaneTechnicolor said:

God Frizz everyone knows Letterman is better... why do you insist on being such a fuckass?

Every 60 year old to dead person likes Letterman.

@Ron: Seriously your best post ever!

Phish would be glad we aren't bitching about the lack jamming at shows.

this is ridiculous. ignored!!

Can't we all just get along and respect each other as much as we respect ourselves?!

I too have not been here long but I have noticed some changes in the phans. The majority are still laid back old school like myself but some yelling and shoving is just not called for. Train your noobs well, and just relax and enjoy the music.

@colinw said:

The community is still strong and there is great knowledge here. If you're unhappy, just step away and think about things for a while, then come back refreshed.

Yes, this.

The problem isn't even that you and others who share the opinion that those of us who are adult enough to know that it is more than OK to share loving expressions of our connection and friendship

And it really feels like those of you who sometimes smatter the psoitive threads have deluded yourselves into thinking that those of us you have labelled as the ".net elitists" are requiring nothing but flowers, puppies and rainbows all the time.

Also not true. Disagreements are unavoidable. No one, not even all-loving ol' Captain Pookie can stand to be sunshine and Care Bears 24-7. But when someone expresses the idea that maybe it would be good if we would all act like adults and show more intelligence and think CRITICALLY about some things, or simply say that they care deeply about amazingly wonderful friends that they've made, I certainly place infinately more vale on THAT than I do the mentally-bereft simpleton who retorts with "would all you phags stop talking about your pheelings?", ph-substituted appelations and all.

...and none of that has anything to do with me. i dont and never cared about who hangs out outside of phish.net, i dont feel left out. i tend to shy away from negative forums about nitrous and glowsticks and flat brims and secret clique facebook groups. i made one comment, intended to be funny that you thought about too much.

@JayDubya said:

@Frizz said:

Well you may think that but................what else are they doing on the internet?

Searching for porn like the rest of us.

theres porn on this thing?? damn, wish someone would have told me that before.

Where's the line for the clique? Is that a cool thing? Where's the leg 2 announcement? Where's the glowstick, rumors and Dead comparisons? I love the entertainment. Why does everyone vote up certain topics? Got your room at Harveys yet? Who wants to see more Jer vids from Mike? We need a Waiting for a Miracle. Who wants good CK5 posters?

I've tried to stay out of these "what is wrong with phish.net" threads, but I feel compelled to say one or two things. If I repeat anything that's been said already, I apologize

If you don't like someone or something they say, just ignore them. It's that simple. I have a friend that used to talk all kinds of ridiculous crap to me on our fantasy football message board. He knows me well and knows how to get under my skin. For years he would say things with the sole intention of getting a rise out of me....and for years I bit. Even though I knew he was just being a jerk, I couldn't help myself. Well one day I decided to ignore him....and I continued to ignore him. Sure as shit he gave up trying. My life has been so much more peaceful since then.

I can tell that these "what's going on here" threads are made with the best intentions, but honestly, they're contributing to the "problem". We will never move on if both sides keep it going. To the ones that want this to be a happy place......be the bigger person and back off. That's the best advice I can give.

Please, everyone be happy and let's end this bickering and get back to enjoying eachother and the band that we all love.

Slothberries has spoken

you guys do realize this isn't the only phish message board right? There are hundreds. Don't Jersey .net. Go be a clown on PT and stop getting so bent outta shape. It's the internetz.

@LarryDavid said:

@phrankG said:

Did you all seriously vote Frownland's "how many more of these soapbox speeches do we have to endure?" comment down? Is that for real? What the fuck kind of forum is this where no one can express a contrary opinion? I, for one, found the original post to be super condescending, self-righteous, and totally uncalled for. I said this in another thread but this "voting people down" bullshit is absolutely ridiculous. A bunch of you guys all know each other and post all the time, and that is totally fine, but at the same time that means if someone disagrees with one of you, you can all band together and totally censor that person's viewpoint and that is just a flat out disgrace.

/signed

+1

@CaptainPookie said:

@Slothberries said:

I can tell that these "what's going on here" threads are made with the best intentions, but honestly, they're contributing to the "problem". We will never move on if both sides keep it going. To the ones that want this to be a happy place......be the bigger person and back off. That's the best advice I can give. Please, everyone be happy and let's end this bickering and get back to enjoying eachother and the band that we all love. Slothberries has spoken

For the most part, I never contribute negative comments but the one I responded to last night really got to me. Flippant remarks like that, regardless of someone's intentions are a fool's solution/response to someone expresing concern about something that they care about. Period.

And do you REALLY expect me to believe that my expressing my distaste to a negative, childish response is the problem at hand? The only time that doing that becomes a problem is when the two parties in disagreement repeat themselves ad-nauseum as has been many times in other threads. And in that interest, the very few times that I have had an issue with something someone says, I say it once and then move on. And in that interest, I have NO intentions of making what I have to say an endless in-fighting debacle.

But I'm not new to the world. I've been around the block enough times to know that Ignoring a problem will not make it go away, nor is it an intelligent practice from any standpoint. And I'm a little insulted if you expected me to believe to be so on any level.

Regardless, I am ignoring *this* problem from here on out. I'm back to being the regular CaptainPookie who pays no attention at all to the vapid arguments that pop up here and there, and I'll contribute my Pookie-esque, hippy-dippy f***ery when the mood strikes.

So it goes.

wait.....i insulted you? wow. i was just offering some friendly advice, which you can take of leave if you want. i offered this advice to EVERYONE, not speifically captain pookie. im confused as to why you took it as a personal attack.

for the record...i DO believe that going back and forth with these supposed a-holes IS part of the problem. its adding fuel to the fire. just be the bigger person and walk away.

woweee. i never in a million years thought that my post was insulting to anyone

I didn't take it as you speaking directly TO me. But I am certainly ONE of the people in the group that you were speaking to in general. And I responded on my own behalf only, as I am the only one I can speak for.

It's very difficult not to say anything when someone suggests that the solution to dealing with people who say belittling things to me and others (I'm speaking of the people I was originally referring to, @frownland ,etc. not you) is to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen.

And for the record, I am not under the illusion that responding to their comments will make them STOP saying stupid, childish shit. But I will never sit here like a passive-aggressive wall-flower and say nothing when such people do make those comments.

Again, I have no intentions to go back and forth with the people who made them to begin with. I've said my peace. You're right that an endless cycle of point-repeating is ultimately fruitless. But there is not, nor will there EVER be anything wrong with me disagreing with something that came across as flat-out ignorant. And it blows my mind that the OP's post, which boiled down to "Jeez, alot of the negativity that has been going on here and there really sucks. It would be great if there was LESS of that, and MORE kindness" was referred to as "self-righteous and condescending" - particularly when placed beside the comment of "will you phags stop talking about your pheelings?"

It's really simple. Someone was trying to plant a seed of kindness. And all of the sudden they are accused of having grandiose ideas of forcing .net to be nothing but rainbows and butterfly farts and ban everyone who doesn't act that way. That's not even close to what their intention was.

And then the suggestion to ignore it and not comment as a means of making it dissapear just doesn't make sense to me, so I pointed out the painfully obvious flaw inherent in the idea of "you shouldn't say anything. It will be more effective." I disagree. Again, very simple.

I'm not starting World War III, I'm responding. As I, you and @poonutties and @frownland and anyone else here can and should do.

The things that shouldn't really be dragged out and beaten to death are the threads where people outright and visciously insult each other and inspire threats within PM's and such, ..the one's that have been going on earlier in the week.

I'm not attacking you, @Slothberries. I have no beef with you. I just simply disagree with the ideaof not being allowed to comment on somethin I disagree with.

Now I'm going to see some great live music and dance.

Peace

@Frizz said:

@walstib said:

@Frizz said:

Who says I'm unhappy, fecal face? I just got a new truck and I'm on my way to making some money. I'm pretty much the opposite of that.

Money = Happiness

Just found that to be an interesting inference.

It doesn't hurt I guess. I have noticed you do seem marginally less angry of late.

Congrats on the economic upswing.

Oh no, smegma head. I'm still angry, I'm just sick of people whining when I throw a jab their way. Never think I'm any less angry. I did that once. Bad thinking. Money does equal happiness. Ever seen a over joyed hobo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l3z5EAykVE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

look, i hear you. and i understand where youre coming from. you can deal with this or any situation however you want, pookie, and no one is going to tell you that youre wrong for it. again all i was really trying to do was try to help everyone make peace and offer a little friendly advice. when someone on the internet, someone that i dont know from a hole in the wall, wants to act like a child and say belittling things to me.....what response is there to give? what can possibly be said that will get through to this person? you gotta realize (which im sure you do) what youre dealing with. theres no reasoning with an infant. pretending they dont exist is what works for me. im not going to let anything that frownland or any other anonymous person that i dont know bring me down.

Done looking that up. I knew it wasn't going to be flattering but that actually was a little grosser then I expected.

@Slothberries said:

look, i hear you. and i understand where youre coming from. you can deal with this or any situation however you want, pookie, and no one is going to tell you that youre wrong for it. again all i was really trying to do was try to help everyone make peace and offer a little friendly advice. when someone on the internet, someone that i dont know from a hole in the wall, wants to act like a child and say belittling things to me.....what response is there to give? what can possibly be said that will get through to this person? you gotta realize (which im sure you do) what youre dealing with. theres no reasoning with an infant. pretending they dont exist is what works for me. im not going to let anything that frownland or any other anonymous person that i dont know bring me down.

When I think of people speaking out for attention I couldn't help but think of my toddler and when he calls for attention in a negative manner. I ignore this behavior because he doesn't deserve my attention when he acts that way nor should he think that this is how we get attention. Now if it gets out of control it's "time out" or worse. Sometimes we have to deal with toddlers and not stoop to their level.

It's the f***ing internet...