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I don't think I've seen one of these since joining .net. While we await tour announcement and there's not much to talk about, who is struggling with addiction? Who has overcome it? I've had a big problem with opiates in my young life. Second time getting sober, I have a girl worth fighting for this time around. I forgot how the natural glow of life feels.. For the first time in a while, I think my brains natural opiates are flowing. It's sunny outside, I'm in a good mood. I even have to work tonight, and I'm not dreading it. /no more powerful pills. wish i had some pot though.
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Good for you man! That shit isn't worth it. I've seen opiates destroy some wonderful lives. Pot though... yummmmmm. Way back in the day they used to prescribe pot as a cure for alcohol addiction. This of course was before it was made illegal. I think they need to get back to something along those lines. Instead of methadone, let these kids get sick and get through the withdrawals by using pot as a medication. Of course it isn't a complete cure but it would be better and healthier than continuing on opiates.
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Fun fact: the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was a firm believer in the use of LSD as a tool for overcoming addiction. I am also a firm believer in this. Nothing makes me re-evaluate my life and try to better myself like a trip. I lost my job and car a few months ago. Right after it happened, I hopped in a friends car and spent the last of my money on Furthur fall tour. Saw 5 shows in a row. If I hadn't done this, I honestly think I'd be in rehab right now. Terrapin Suite> Blues For Allah> Crazy Fingers was a thousand times more helpful to my brain than any amount of methadone or meetings would have been. Thank you live music 
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@Mr_Palmer said: Fun fact: the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was a firm believer in the use of LSD as a tool for overcoming addiction. I am also a firm believer in this. Nothing makes me re-evaluate my life and try to better myself like a trip. I lost my job and car a few months ago. Right after it happened, I hopped in a friends car and spent the last of my money on Furthur fall tour. Saw 5 shows in a row. If I hadn't done this, I honestly think I'd be in rehab right now. Terrapin Suite> Blues For Allah> Crazy Fingers was a thousand times more helpful to my brain than any amount of methadone or meetings would have been. Thank you live musicYour "fact" has mostly fiction in it. While Bill Wilson did experiment with LSD very briefly (once or so) he quickly realized it was NOT a solution and had no part in the AA program. Also realize that AA had already been in existence for a few decades and its form established at that time is largely the format that is used to help people get and stay sober today.
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trey on drug court programs. just like the rest of us
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I'm really glad you started this thread. What I have to say will probably start some debate, because the substance I've been addicted to is pot. Not as bad as opiates, of course, but its still addictive just as alcohol is addictive to some people even though its legal and enjoyed responsibly by most people. In the process of trying to treat my depression and anxiety issues, it became clear to me that I had no control over my pot smoking, therefore I was an addict and had to face up to the fact. While most of you can probably smoke a joint once in a while and leave it at that, I needed to smoke all the time. It was my self-medication for a wide variety of issues that I had been neglecting for over a decade. I've only been clean for a couple weeks, so I'm still going through some of the withdrawal symptoms like extreme mood swings and unbelievably terrible nightmares. Small potatoes compared to what heroin withdrawl is like, but regardless, when you don't have control over your use of any substance, that is addiction. I don't want to bring anyone down, go ahead and hit that bong. I don't judge you, in fact I'm jealous. I have tons more to say on the topic but I'm at work right now so will have to pick this up later. PEACE.
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My friend is battling a heroin addiction. She is taking that Subutex shit to keep her from getting sick, and she still smokes pot every day. I worry about her. I don't think smoking pot is all that dangerous compared to what she's BEEN doing, but STILL......I feel she really needs to put ALL 'substances' down for awhile and get her shit together. SHE feels like the pot helps her cope, but I suspect it's not going to really help her in the long run.but who am I to talk? i've been taking Adderall every day for 10 years and am hopelessly addicted to it.......i could barely get out of bed without it. <sigh>
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that's the same thing my shrink has been telling me: that I need to put down ALL mind-altering substances, even the ones I've never had a problem with, like alcohol. This made me upset because I've never been an alcoholic or even a heavy drinker, but suddenly I can't even have a beer or a glass of wine on occasion. I'm going along with the plan for now, but I have the feeling the I will smoke weed again one day, and whether I go back to being a hardcore pothead is the unknown that is troubling me.
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also, if I play by the rules that the 12-steppers want me to obey, I can never go to a phish show again, period. OUCH.
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I'm an even angrier dick when I'm sober.
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for the past few years, whenever i smoke pot, all it does for me is open my eyes to how MESSED UP AND SHITTY the world, and my life, really are. they say ignorance is bliss, and sometimes I agree...
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@benevolutionI'm addicted to pot as well. im only 21, and somehow I managed to get through high school and most of college doing pretty well while smoking every day. I recently took a 10 day trip to Israel, and obviously I wasn't trying to get caught. I was very nervous about the trip, mainly because I knew I couldnt smoke weed and therefore would have a tough time getting to sleep.
Pot really is a totally mental addiction. I didnt have any physical symptoms over those 10 days, aside from the fact that I didnt sleep nearly any bit those first couple nights. we were allowed to drink a couple nights on the trip (birthright, for you jews, you should go its a great time) so that helped some. But after that trip, I went right back to smoking everyday. I spent a lot of time thinking about why this is, and why I feel I need to smoke it everyday, and I really could not come up with an answer. I guess talking about with my friends who arent real stoners, and even on this forum, helps to give me ideas about why I dont absolutely need pot everyday. I quit, no problems, for 10 days. I felt great, health wise, I even was able to quit cigarettes for most of the trip (not when i came back).
lets continue the conversation. What kinds of things do you do that help alleviate the "need"?
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@CornFromAJar said:
My friend is battling a heroin addiction. She is taking that Subutex shit to keep her from getting sick, and she still smokes pot every day. I worry about her. I don't think smoking pot is all that dangerous compared to what she's BEEN doing, but STILL......I feel she really needs to put ALL 'substances' down for awhile and get her shit together. SHE feels like the pot helps her cope, but I suspect it's not going to really help her in the long run.i myself have never been addicted to the opiates or anything other than cigarettes (which i'm almost 11 months quit now), but i can't say the same for some of my friends. most of them are back to drinking and smoking pot occasionally which is fine for them to handle but they all say they needed that time away from everything to clear their mind and get their heads straight. maybe she's stronger than them but it makes sense? again i wouldn't know that struggle so i can't comment myslef
but who am I to talk? i've been taking Adderall every day for 10 years and am hopelessly addicted to it.......i could barely get out of bed without it. <sigh>
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@benevolution said: also, if I play by the rules that the 12-steppers want me to obey, I can never go to a phish show again, period. OUCH.That's not even true at all. I've been to more shows sober now (20 vs. 15 or so @slothberries forgive the estimation) than being f***ed up while keeping a strong program. The point is to live life, not have to sit at home.
And Phish's music is just as rewarding sober (regardless of what non-phans say).
And if we are ever going to the same show, I'll be glad to hang with you pot-free.
I totally get the pot addiction. There are a lot of us out there.
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@listen4myHorn said: @benevolution said:i think the 12-steppers just say you shouldn't put yourself in position where you'll be tempted....like in a crowd of THOUSANDS of potheads freely sharing their dope. Lol.also, if I play by the rules that the 12-steppers want me to obey, I can never go to a phish show again, period. OUCH.That's not even true at all. I've been to more shows sober now (20 vs. 15 or so @slothberries forgive the estimation) than being f***ed up while keeping a strong program. The point is to live life, not have to sit at home.
And Phish's music is just as rewarding sober (regardless of what non-phans say).
And if we are ever going to the same show, I'll be glad to hang with you pot-free.
I totally get the pot addiction. There are a lot of us out there.
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^^^ precisely.
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@CornFromAJar said: @listen4myHorn said:Yes, and it might be good advice if you are just beginning to get sober (first 90 days or so), but no one I've ever come across says I can never go again.@benevolution said:i think the 12-steppers just say you shouldn't put yourself in position where you'll be tempted....like in a crowd of THOUSANDS of potheads freely sharing their dope. Lol.also, if I play by the rules that the 12-steppers want me to obey, I can never go to a phish show again, period. OUCH.That's not even true at all. I've been to more shows sober now (20 vs. 15 or so @slothberries forgive the estimation) than being f***ed up while keeping a strong program. The point is to live life, not have to sit at home.
And Phish's music is just as rewarding sober (regardless of what non-phans say).
And if we are ever going to the same show, I'll be glad to hang with you pot-free.
I totally get the pot addiction. There are a lot of us out there.
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@listen4myHorn said: @CornFromAJar said:thats true, I should have been more clear. Still, there was a period that I had to remain clean for probationary piss tests, and going to shows the temptation was so painful it took away from the fun I could have had.@listen4myHorn said:Yes, and it might be good advice if you are just beginning to get sober (first 90 days or so), but no one I've ever come across says I can never go again.@benevolution said:i think the 12-steppers just say you shouldn't put yourself in position where you'll be tempted....like in a crowd of THOUSANDS of potheads freely sharing their dope. Lol.also, if I play by the rules that the 12-steppers want me to obey, I can never go to a phish show again, period. OUCH.That's not even true at all. I've been to more shows sober now (20 vs. 15 or so @slothberries forgive the estimation) than being f***ed up while keeping a strong program. The point is to live life, not have to sit at home.
And Phish's music is just as rewarding sober (regardless of what non-phans say).
And if we are ever going to the same show, I'll be glad to hang with you pot-free.
I totally get the pot addiction. There are a lot of us out there.
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Interesting that many of you are concerned with your pot use. Whatever you can do to better your life, I say go for it. For me, however, I'll stay 'on the pipe.' I've been in full withdrawal from opiates before, I'm talkin' sweating my ass off, shaking, can't think about anything but how shitty my life is. Take a couple rips of chron, ten minutes later I'm on my laptop laughing at something random, putting on some good tunes. It's strange how much of a miracle drug it is. I went to a few meetings last time I beat the addiction, and I just don't fit in. I love the grateful dead, live music is my passion, and until alcohol or pot start to deteriorate my social and family life, I'll keep it up. I, as a person, cannot handle opiates. If I get a bottle of Vicodin it's gone in 1 day. Used to snort OC 80's on the reg. My brain just loves it, so now I know I can't indulge, even every once in a while! EDIT: I am 19 years old. I have a very long life ahead of me as long as I stay the f*** away from pills.
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I'm 2 years clean. I love it more everyday. My favorite thing has been rebuilding my relationship with my family. My grandmother passed away yesterday and I'm so glad I got in recovery and was able to spend the last two years five houses away from her.
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@easywind111 so glad to hear it man. My grandmother was diagnosed with MS years ago, and even though she's fighting hard, I know she won't be around forever. I have the choice to be here to insure that her remaining years are happy ones, not worried ones.
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@Mr_Palmer
Enjoy her while she's here. My grandfather and her were together for 64 years. He's on dialysis 3 days a week. With her being gone I really have to step it up with him. None of this would be possible if I was on drugs.
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Right on man I respect that. Precisely why I started this thread. I didn't hit rock bottom this time around, so I've chosen to not tell my family about it. Therefor nobody to talk to about it(girlfriend doesn't understand addiction.) It helps to have even .net there to reassure me it's the right choice.
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Yo dude I'm 2 years clean and I still do at least one meeting a week. There's a ton of good people at support groups. A support team is crucial.
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Im a terrible alcoholic. I've been on a real good run, though. Its been since 1/9 since Ive touched liquor. I was up to a a pint+ a day. Horrible. Didnt matter what time of day either. My drinking spirals horribly out of control every once in a while. Near the end of the last bad booze binge I was getting very mean. I was even being mean here on .net. Then my wife pretty much gave me an ultimatum. I don't know, maybe I wanted her to. Part of me was actually relieved she did. Like i had a reason to stop. I pondered AA, but then there the whole giving yourself to a higher power, which is not an option for me. Things have been really good lately, though. Lots of excellent quality time with the wife. Ive made more attempts to see my family, as well. So after the shock of quitting that destructive daily pattern, I changed my handle to AugustWest. Seemed like the thing to do. I puff a couple times a week, but nothing crazy. That i can handle. Its either here or its not.
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@AugustWest2001 If you want to hear something to assure you it's the right choice, here it goes: My father has been and always will be enduring the same struggle. He left when I was 2, he was never there for my mom, my brother or my sister. I only hear about him when my relatives say he's doing well, or if he's not. The other day we caught wind that he was in the ICU. Apparently had been smoking meth for some time, ended up in the ER. Blah blah, BE THERE FOR YOUR FAMILY! They need you. I needed a father to whoop my ass for ever touching painkillers, but he wasn't there. You got this, you know how much better your life is without it.
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@Mr_Palmer said: @AugustWest2001 If you want to hear something to assure you it's the right choice, here it goes: My father has been and always will be enduring the same struggle. He left when I was 2, he was never there for my mom, my brother or my sister. I only hear about him when my relatives say he's doing well, or if he's not. The other day we caught wind that he was in the ICU. Apparently had been smoking meth for some time, ended up in the ER. Blah blah, BE THERE FOR YOUR FAMILY! They need you. I needed a father to whoop my ass for ever touching painkillers, but he wasn't there. You got this, you know how much better your life is without it.
Thank you very much. Yeah, I do. The funny thing is, I can have two, three beers if the wife and i go out to hear some music or something. Its liquor that grabs me. A year before I started dating my wife, ......jesus......I had a cocaine problem. Liquor grabs me the exact same way cocaine did. Honestly, with my alcohol tolerance, beer doesn't really do anything. So I can responsibly go out and be social. I just have to be good when no one is around, because that's when I turn into the other guy......when I'm left alone with my horrible addiction. I used to hide it. Sometimes well, sometimes not so well. The wife would find all these pint bottles in the basement and my closet. Yeah folks, its like that. The look on her face each time she found the empty bottles was extremely hard to deal with. Sometimes the shame made me drink more, this last time I'd just had enough of myself and the ever-repeating cycle.
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@Joonze if you read this, i think about you often. Not in a creepy way or anything like that, but I hope you are doing well. You're an awesome person, but I know you have a lot on your family-plate and that is the trigger most of the time. I'd like to say that we both can get better.
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I'd just like to say that although I am proud to have kept myself relatively clean over my life, you are all beautiful, brave souls. Your stories today, while not exactly happy, have shown a light upon my day. You are all so strong, and I wish you all good luck. I know many people struck with this horrible disease, and I am lucky to have a clean family. I can only imagine the pain you and your family feels going through this. So I'm wishing the best thoughts and (((ViBeS))).
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@AugustWest2001 - congratulations on your 39 days without liquor (unclear whether you were drinking beer during that period, but it's an accomplishment either way). I've been there. Lying. Hiding shit all over the place (most of the time, hiding it very poorly - my sock drawer? Really? That's the best idea I had???). Well, I haven't had a drink in over 25 months now. I feel better than I have in well over a decade. It's getting to the point that not only do I not think about drinking anymore, I very rarely even think about NOT drinking. Which, in certain ways, is even stranger. Anyway, if you ever want to talk recovery or AA or anything else, I'd be happy to tell you my experience - which is all I've really got. I can't tell you what will work for you, but I'd be happy to share what's worked for me.
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Keep it real sober folks!
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I'm recovering as well. 8 years of heroin, pharmies, blow & booze brought me down hard. I just celebrated 2 years clean/sober last wednesday. Life is a blessing. @Mr_Palmer psychedelics can definitely be useful in treating addictions, but as more a catalyst than anything else. It takes work on a daily basis to stay clean, no matter what path towards sobriety one chooses. I learned what to do years ago while on LSD.......but I never did it. So I never stayed clean. These days I follow the script that was laid out for me back then, and I'm staying clean. I did the NA thing for awhile, and I can honestly say that I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for that. That being said I've moved on from the program & am working towards my own personal path.
I go to more shows now than I did when I was using, and I have a blast! My friends (not addicts) like to party before/during/after shows, and it doesn't bother me at all. They're understanding individuals that keep an eye on me, wouldn't give me anything.......and would intervention my ass in heartbeat if I started getting f***ed up. Surround yourself with people like that and you'll be good.
"And Phish's music is just as rewarding sober (regardless of what non-phans say)."
^^^^Moreso IMHO.
I went to a free STD testing clinic on VD, and my arm still feels a little "off" from having blood drawn. I though to myself today, "and I used to stick myself all of the time?????? WTF."
Great thread!
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I admire all of you for your courage and sharing openly in this thread.I am a alcoholic/drug addict. I overcame a $400/week cocaine habit (on my own) in 1989, but continued to party. Alcohol, weed, and oxys finished me off in Jan. 2004. AT that point I had no choice but to admit that I was whipped. I had been trying to stop using for 3 years prior to that, but failed miserably every time. I had two kids (1&3) and a beautiful wife, but the threat of losing them did not stop me from using, and I was depressed out of my mind. I had to admit defeat and ask for help. AA was the 1st place I went because it was free. It ended up saving my life (up to this point).
I was scared shitless at the prospect of living "without medicating", but AA gave me hope because the rooms were full of people who were very happy, even though they had gone through everything I was going through, and much worse. I also had a problem with the idea of God or a "higher power", but it became immediately obvious that AA is in no way a religious organization (these people curse like mercenary sailors). All I had to do was believe that there was some power greater than myself that exists in this universe. It could be as simple as the power of a group collective. Most of all, I had to remain willing to learn, and willing to change.
I am now clean and sober for 8 years. I realize today that I have total freedom in my life to make right or wrong choices that will affect how things turn out. On Sunday I went to a memorial service for a friend who died trying to withdraw from alcohol/opiates on his own, without help. He stumbled outside during DT's and froze to death overnight. He was 36.
If you want to quit a substance and you can't, then you are an addict. If you can moderate or stop altogether without going crazy, then you are not an addict. If there is a question, PLEASE GET HELP! People die from this shit every day,and I have known many personally. I have a better life now than I could have ever imagined 8 years ago, because i asked for help.
I try never to judge others for the choices they make. I don't ever want to be "preachy" or tell others what they should do. I just wanted to share a bit of my story since the topic was on the board. -Thanks-
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bump...@AugustWest2001...
Old man down, way down down, down by the docks of the city.
Blind and dirty, asked me for a dime, a dime for a cup of coffee.
I got no dime but I got some time to hear his story.
My name is august west, and I love my pearly baker best more than my wine.
More than my wine - more than my maker, though hes no friend of mine.
love the Name change....i totally understand...and yes, love ya brother....one day we will meet and hug...and smoke a ****...why would the block out "cigs"....without quotes...dang curse meters..
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this is cool... i did read most/ okay some of your stories....
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I have battled very serious drug addiction in my life. I now can saw that I have over eight years totally clean. The only thing that worked for me was total abstience and active involvement in a twelve step fellowship. That's me though. Not anyone else. I do have to say that I have been to many shows totally clean, and now enjoy them more that way. If anyone is interested in any of my experiences with my years clean, my expierence going to shows that way, or need a clean crew to chill with at shows, I'd love your private messages.
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@AugustWest2001 said: @Mr_Palmer said:we are so alike its scary....we need to chat some more brother..@AugustWest2001 If you want to hear something to assure you it's the right choice, here it goes: My father has been and always will be enduring the same struggle. He left when I was 2, he was never there for my mom, my brother or my sister. I only hear about him when my relatives say he's doing well, or if he's not. The other day we caught wind that he was in the ICU. Apparently had been smoking meth for some time, ended up in the ER. Blah blah, BE THERE FOR YOUR FAMILY! They need you. I needed a father to whoop my ass for ever touching painkillers, but he wasn't there. You got this, you know how much better your life is without it.
Thank you very much. Yeah, I do. The funny thing is, I can have two, three beers if the wife and i go out to hear some music or something. Its liquor that grabs me. A year before I started dating my wife, ......jesus......I had a cocaine problem. Liquor grabs me the exact same way cocaine did. Honestly, with my alcohol tolerance, beer doesn't really do anything. So I can responsibly go out and be social. I just have to be good when no one is around, because that's when I turn into the other guy......when I'm left alone with my horrible addiction. I used to hide it. Sometimes well, sometimes not so well. The wife would find all these pint bottles in the basement and my closet. Yeah folks, its like that. The look on her face each time she found the empty bottles was extremely hard to deal with. Sometimes the shame made me drink more, this last time I'd just had enough of myself and the ever-repeating cycle.
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Thank you all for sharing. I smoked everyday from age 17-27. Sure I missed a few days but it ran my life. I still burn but if I do it more than 4-5 times a month thats a lot. My issue has been drinking for a while. For most of my 20's I was drinking heavily. It got to the point a few years ago that I would hit up the liquor store by my job before heading home. Doing this meant I could have 2-3 beers before getting home so my wife would only see me have 2-3. She had no Idea I was having 6 on average. Nips of Tequila took over for those post work beers. That meant drunk came quicker. My days off would be filled with drinking. Bars at noon. Way to many days/nights driving drunk. Way too many close calls. Crashed my car, cut my finger trying to cook dinner. I was spiraling out of control.
Then my wife got pregnant. I had to change. I was becoming a mean drunk. My Dad was a big drinker. He quit drinking and smoking cigs. the day I was born. He hasn't had a drink in 31 years. I tried to follow his lead. While I didn't quit I took control of my drinking. I now have a beer a night, and 2-3 on "off nights". No binge drinking. I feel so much better mentally and physically. I thanked/apologized to my wife for putting up with my drunkin nonsense for all those years. I think she really appreciated that.
The drinking still pulls at me, calls my name. I will from time to time grab a beer and pound it before I head out to run to the grocery store, or even drink it while driving to the store, etc.. I don't know why I do it or why I feel like I need to. That's what scares me. Once the newness of having a baby wears off, and life gets "normal" again I hope the bottle doesn't pull me back to the point I was at a few years ago.
I really do appreciate all of you sharing your stories. You can feel strength in community. I hope all the younger .netters read this thread and take it serious. Pay attention to your use and your friends use. A few nights of partying can easily turn in to a habit. Heres to staying strong.
Thanks for reading
-jay-
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ya know what is scaring me? Nothing.....
im not saying anything bad about u guys....its all on me
actually, me is scaring me....
its f***ed up... i will do anything for anyone... but i wont do a gd thing for myelf....
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@ johnnyd or any @admins...would you guys consider making this a sticky?
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Addicted to pot? Shut up.
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I haven't been to a show since getting clean. The last shows I did was Miami 09. I really don't know how comfortable I'd be in that environment again, and I really don't know who I'd go with. I've been to a few concerts but nothing like Phish or Further. I feel like boundaries have played a huge role in my recovery. I'm not a recluse or anything. I've just found other things I really enjoy. I play golf about 4 days a week and I'm back in college getting a double major. I feel at some point I'll be ready to see Phish again I just hope it won't be to late.I love this thread too. I share my story as much as I can. I plan on staying active in recovery till the day I die. I love the recovery community. The more I put into it, the more I get out of it.
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@Frizz said: Addicted to pot? Shut up.People use pot as a crutch just like any other drug. It releases endorphins and gives you a break from reality.
Some addicts choose food or shopping or gambling.
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WHOAH! I got off work and read all this. I'm getting chills .net, didn't think this thread would do as much good as it has. I have thoroughly enjoyed everyones tales. I really can't stress enough how happy this makes me, please consider stickying this admins. I will be checking this thread daily.@Joonze Never conversed with ya man, but your a great character around these boards, which leads me to believe your a great character in real life. What are you struggling with?
Again, .net, I can't thank you enough. Stay sober tonight everybody!!! I'm going to spend the night with said girl who I'm fighting for. Just sitting next to her, hearing her speak, makes me so god damn happy. It's worth every second of withdrawal I endured JUST to be around her. I hope you all have something worth fighting for.
With that, I say *cheers!* *gulps water, smokes cig* Have a great night everybody.
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"But Ill get back on my feet again someday,The good lord willin, if he says I may."
edit: I can't willingly accept there is a higher power or somebody I can expect to 'watch over me'. But god damnit, Wharf Rat's lyrics are so intense...
THANK YOU JERRY
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...and Hunter.had to.
this thread made me feel better.
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@MomaDan said: @Frizz said:I had a feeling I wouldn't get much understanding from some of you. Thanks to those of you who get it. I'll refrain from adding any additional posts to this thread since it seems I've ruffled a few feathers with my first few, and I'll save it for my marijuana anonymous meetings.Addicted to pot? Shut up.Have you ever sucked dick for weed? Boo this man!
yes, it is a real group.
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wow.. i am a lush.. love being drunk...im not preacing, im just being joonze....really im a sweet guy if you ever get to know me... i love talkin with about 90% of
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Higher Power...funny how so many of "us" get hung up on the whole "higher power" thing. I don't know much about my "higher power" but one thing for certain is that it's a mystery and far to vast for me to intellectualize or articulate. Maybe it's the universe. Maybe it's God, Jah, Allah, Yahweh, The Force, The Group...I don't know...maybe it's the collective consciousness of every one else that's out there praying to whatever they're praying to and trying to beat this disease and f***ing live with some level of enthusiasm and enjoyment one day...one breath at a time. I don't care what it is, frankly but it has certainly given me a life worth living and one I'd never imagined possible when I entered treatment over 3 years ago. I did NOT want to stop drinking/snorting/smoking/popping though...no way, that was my life. How could I possibly enjoy life without the only thing that I really enjoyed...the only thing that made me really happy and feel comfortable in my own skin? I couldn't fathom my life without it but I also knew I couldn't keep going at the rate I was going.... and I only had one speed. There was no kill switch. I never wanted to be a social drinker and I don't fascinate about that today. I drank to oblivion. Cocaine just evened me out a bit, you know? Pot...pot was my anti-drug. That was my baseline for 10 years. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and lots of healthy snacking in between. My addiction/alcoholism ruled me. I was it's servant. It owned me. It was my higher power. I had no intention of staying sober. I got sober to get people off my back and take a little break from work; it had all become just too overwhelming. I couldn't help but laugh when I heard Demi Moore checked herself into a medical facility for "exhaustion". I know that "exhaustion", Demi. I feel ya. It's tiring as hell. I had a great sales job with a great company and had managed to maintain my lifestyle of drinking/drugging while performing at a pretty high standard. Man, I was miserable though. I hated myself. I felt like such a piece of f***ing shit when I wasn't drunk...high...or en route to get there. I was living such a lie. I could not stand the sight of myself in the mirror. I was an absolute mess and deep down I knew it, but I couldn't admit it you or anyone close to me and I'd immediately go on the defensive it if you hinted that I had a problem.
I thought I had really bad anxiety/depression...and I did, but I can honestly say that was just a byproduct of my lifestyle. It all worked for me for a while but it stopped working and I was MISERABLE. I was morally bankrupt. My own father called me that years before it I got sober. He nailed it too. Truer words had never been spoken about my makeup at the end of my run. I was a miserable, drunk, ego-maniacal, morally broken human being that had trouble just...being.
Getting sober wasn't that hard for me. I didn't have a choice really. When the people you love most plan an intervention and fly across country...well...that was a wake up call. So getting sober for me was just checking into treatment and getting a few days under my belt wasn't that difficult. It was a break...a retreat from the stresses of the sales job, the completely bat-shit insane relationship I had managed to entangle myself in...that was all the easy part, the calm before getting back into the "real world". Staying sober...well, that's a different story. Staying sober takes f***ing work, man.
I'm minutes away from entering my 1,194th day of this new life I was catapulted into not all that long ago. It takes work. Most days I'm incredibly happy...content...relaxed. The anxiety and depression...gone. Sure, there are moments that can become overwhelming if I allow them. But that's a decision for me today. I can decide to let external forces/people/places/things take control of my life or I can say "f*** it" and focus on what I can control, and not freak over that which I can not. It's all about action for me. If I'm not feeling well today it's because of something I've done, not done, said, or shouldn't have said. For me, it's really that simple. In the past, I'd anesthetize immediately as soon as the fear, uncertainty, anger, anxiety, depression began to flirt with me. Today, I can pause and acknowledge that that feeling is present...and I can take action. I can talk to someone. I can meditate. I can pray...even without knowing what exactly I'm praying to and it provides immediate relief. I still don't know why or how it works...and I don't need to or want to, but it works.
For me, it comes down to taking suggestions, pausing, taking action, striving to live a healthy life, talking with others that are down with this disease, prayer & meditation, and getting out of my own f***ing way. I'm my own worst enemy. When I start buying all the bullshit my mind manufactures, I'm in trouble.
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That post was a work of art @Bryannatti. I know what you are saying.
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I THINK WE ARE A UNIQUE GROUP...sorry for the caps....but i think a breakfast to meet up wood be real cool
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11 months sober on Valentine's Day. I celebrated with Trey. 
Life is hard enough without the drinking/drugs. I feel ya @bryannati. Well done. Sometimes, it takes a blind man to say......
Don't ya see?
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I THINK WE ARE A UNIQUE GROUP...sorry for the caps....but i think a breakfast to meet up wood be real cool
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ide go to the city, have some eggs and a good laugh
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omg.. i was stuck in the drunk room... and they almost excepted me in...imagine that, having to quit drinking
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I'm sorry potheads but I completetly agree with frizz on this one
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@berzerker said: I'm sorry potheads but I completetly agree with frizz on this one
so u got the bags?
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by the way, beautiful stuff bryannati
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wow...a lot of deep personal stuff going on in here....congrats to everyone who opened up and a bigger congrats to those who are winning that daily battle...keep up the good work...
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Whelp. Guess I'll throw my story up here too. I don't think I've ever really expounded on my addiction experiences here so here goes. Sorry if this gets a bit lengthy. Sometimes you just need to talk about it, you know?I overcame a pretty serious heroin habit in high school. I'm not really quite sure how it all started but I think it was a deadly combination of boredom and hanging out with a bad element. Mostly boredom though, I think. I sometimes have a hard time keeping my mind occupied. Heroin was really good at that, I found. A large factor contributing to my continued use at that time was that I was dating my dealer. I had access, oftentimes for free. So at 17 I found myself pretty hopelessly addicted. I was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, though. My parents knew nothing. I remained an A student, active in several extracurricular activities - music lessons, band, varsity sports, honors classes, etc. Only I knew and that was just as much torture as going without. I'm not sure what I maxed out at. Probably a couple of grams a day.
So when my relationship with my boyfriend started to sour, I knew what that meant: Not only heartache but withdrawal as well. Interestingly, I had it set in my mind that this was an opportunity rather than a tragedy. It was the winter before I graduated high school when I broke up with my boyfriend. I had plans to attend the local university to study philosophy and physics and something in me just said that I better take advantage of the chances afforded to me for a good education and to follow my dreams (which, admittedly, at the time were to simply learn as much as possible. I had no real idea about what I wanted to do with my life).
Detox sucked ass but I got through it partially by learning about it. I armed myself with information. I taught myself about the receptors in my brain that I'd been pummeling with opiates for the previous 11 months. I learned about every function of opiate receptors that was known at the time...so I understood every single thing I felt - physically and mentally and emotionally - while I was withdrawing. And I kept with me close the knowledge that my brain had changed...and that it would, eventually, change back.
Six months later, off to college I went. I studied hard. I did party but never touched opiates during that time. I had boatloads of fun, racked up a laundry list of life experiences that I'll never forget and that have colored my life to this day, and I was very successful. I graduated after five years with two bachelors' degrees and got a ticket to the grad school of my dreams. I was going to be a scientist. In some way, I think learning all that stuff about brain receptors not only helped me through the recovery, it also set up a life long interest in biochemistry. That's where I was headed. I discovered that I wanted to be an academic research scientist.
So...College > Grad school...fast forward about 6 years...
I started having some killer lower back pain the second year into my postdoctoral training. Shooting pain in my legs. Numbness. Muscle weakness. Excruciating pain. An MRI revealed spondylolysis, a horizontal fracture in my L5 vertebra that was causing disc herniation and putting pressure on the exiting nerve innervating, primarily, the back side of my right leg. It progressively got worse and worse until I was laid flat on my back unable to move for days at a time. That's when opiates entered my life a second time. This time it was sanctioned. Of course, physical dependence on them - yet again - naturally followed with the increasing dosages required to handle the pain. The combination of being constantly in pain, it's impact on my ability to work, and a generally shitty work situation led to the exposure of latent mental illness (primarily bipolar disorder) that had been festering just below the surface probably for years (and, I feel, contributed to the lure of drugs as self-medication in the first place). So yes, of course, I abused them. I'm an addict. Of course, I abused them. This time around, it was an executive decision and the support of my family and husband - who were well aware of the problem - that got me off. I took the last week and a half of my six week medical leave after spinal fusion surgery to get through the worst of the detox. And again, I guess I can say that I'm very lucky that it didn't have as detrimental an impact on my ability to handle work and relationships as it maybe could have. At the most, I was using about 100mg oxycontin/roxicodone a day, I suppose.
I look back on my addiction experiences with a mixture of subtle disgust and an odd sense of fondness. Had it never happened, I'd probably be a different person today. It affected me personally and professionally. Personally, in that I believe it made me a much more humble person, having felt the full force of the power of basic chemistry and biology. It made me understand some things about myself: I have weaknesses but I found the power to overcome them. So even though it made me humble in one sense, it also gave me a ton of confidence as well. Nowadays, I pretty much feel (most of the time at least) that I can handle just about any obstacle. Professionally, it has helped me formulate my scientific interests. I'm a neuroscientist now studying brain development and how it goes wrong in disorders like Fragile X Syndrome and autism. Even though I don't study addiction, I actively keep up on the research in that field and have my own theories about why some people are more likely to become addicts than others. I find it endlessly fascinating.
I absolutely agree with @Busta_Move when he says that it's a daily battle to stay clean. I feel like I have to make the decision to not use every day at least once a day, especially since I still have some access to potential abuse-ables (largely for continuing back problems). For me, it's about conscious control of my drug seeking behavior. I figure that at this point I've come so far, it'd be just really, really stupid to f*** that up. And I hate to think of myself as stupid. So I've managed to stay off for about 4 years now.
Life is a gift. Even the bad times. My life is so rewarding that I really don't need drugs anymore. I'm rich in family and friends. I have an extremely rewarding job that is the epitome of my life's passion. There's music and poetry and all manner of things to keep my brain occupied. And I have love - lots of love - both in and of my life. Living is good and I plan on doing it for some time into the future.
Thanks so much for making it this far. And thanks to all of you for your stories. I've always found joy in the company of others who have had similar experiences and inspiration in your tales of hope and recovery.
Love to you all
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Awesome read @ivy_light, touching stuff
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@benevolution it was a quote from the awesome movie Half Baked. Said by none other than Bob Saget. Continue...
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Whoa @ivy_light, I had no idea...... I'm glad that you're doing well now.I posted this in the GM thread a few weeks back, but I might as well throw it out here as well. I've been spiritually stagnant for awhile, and lately I've been feeling that it's time for a refresher....a psychedelic journey. I always used psychedelics in a spiritual fashion, and to this day I believe in their beneficiality. I truly believe that if I had stuck with them, with good intentions, I would've never wound up where I did. So lately I've been feeling that itch again.....but not as a craving if that makes any sense. I don't want to relapse, I just feel the need for a refresher. Which may or may not be a good idea. I've thought long & hard about it, prayed on it, and it still makes sense.
I've shared this notion with a variety of people. Pretty much everyone seems to understand where I'm coming from, and say it makes sense. Some still think that I shouldn't do it, others think it will be beneficial. I haven't made any decisions....it's not a decision to make lightly, and I plan to continue to pray on it for some time before I make that decision. Relapse isn't an option, that's not what this is about at all......but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, even though I don't think it would.
So I'm talking about it.
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@Dark_Star: Good luck with that. I think you're definitely going about it the right way in that you're thinking/praying/meditating real hard on the idea. I would throw into your considerations the type of psychedelic as well, if you haven't thought about that already. Some might be better than others for you. Of course, I'm really just talking out of my ass here 'cause you're the one who knows what's up with you I hope you find the invigoration you seek
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Check out Sean Kelly of the samples...New leaf! Congrats.
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@Frizz said: Addicted to pot? Shut up.
dude, people around here seem to love you and we, of course, don't know each other, so who cares... but, sometimes I find your posts damn immature and obnoxious.
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@Frizz said:
Addicted to pot? Shut up.I attempted to -1 this and accidentally hit +1. stupid mobile web. Anywho, would any of you kind folks care to even this out for me?
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I love how everyones story is so different, but I can still relate to every one of them.
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A comment by BelbumSea was voted down. Show anyway
Addiction is NOT a disease !
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@BelbumSea said: Addiction is NOT a disease !No trying to be a dick but how about an explination. I am not agreeing or disagreeing just wondering why you think this. A lot of good people spilled their guts in this thread the least you can do is offer some insight as well.
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@Jayem said: @BelbumSea said:He's just trolling. He at least should falsify some show stats to seem more credible.Addiction is NOT a disease !No trying to be a dick but how about an explination. I am not agreeing or disagreeing just wondering why you think this. A lot of good people spilled their guts in this thread the least you can do is offer some insight as well.
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Addiction is NOT a disease !
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing.
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Addiction is not a disease imo. It's a form of control. When you lose your grips on other parts of your life it only makes sense to compensate. Letting go may actually be a disease because of its rarity among most human beings.
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OK. I'm going to make a scientific argument here for the claim that addiction is a disease with an underlying biological basis akin to every other disorder that can afflict the human body. Just bear with me for a little bit. I'm not going to lay out all the details but I hope that this makes sense...Cellular Uniformity:
The brain is an organ. It is made up of cells that share their very basic functions with every other cell in the body - heart cells, liver cells, blood cells, pancreas cells, etc. They divide and grow and have exactly the same metabolic processes as the cells in every other organ. Just as pancreas cells are very specialized to preform a particular function (produce insulin, for example), brain cells are instructed during development to do a job. To achieve their mature states, they express a unique repertoire of genes at specific times and in very tightly regulated amounts. These genes are no different in their fundamental characteristics between pancreas cells and brain cells. What's different appears to be when they're expressed and the amount of their expression. The basic "stuff" of all cells in the body is essentially the same.
The Physical Basis of Psychology:
Brain cells connect up to each other to create circuits and communicate with each other via electrical signals that follow the laws of physics and chemistry. Information about the world is detected by sense organs - the eye, for example - and is encoded in the pattern of electrical signals within circuits of brain cells. It's thought to be somewhat similar to how a computer encodes information in binary. Each circuit is thought to perform a certain function. Just as the cells connect up to other cells, groups of cells - circuits - communicate with other circuits until there is a smooth flow of information.
Here's an example: My eye sees a red ball and information about it is sent to my brain. One circuit tells me it has the property "red". Another incorporates memories that have trained my brain to recognize the object as a "ball". Other circuits instruct my hand muscles to reach out and grab it. So you see. There is a linear flow of information - from sensory detection to object recognition to behavioral output.
If you extrapolate these principles (I'm not going to go through the argument here. This is already going to be a long one), you eventually come to the conclusion that all of our behavior - everything that makes us us - is simply the electrical signals between brain cells. Our personalities, skills, everything has a very real physical basis.
Perturbing the System:
Let's go back to the pancreas for a second. When a person is overweight, doesn't eat right, doesn't exercise, etc, it causes a series of changes in how the cells in the pancreas function that can ultimately result in the loss of their ability to produce insulin. As a result, the person develops diabetes. Similarly, when a person takes a drug that affects the brain, it results in changes in how the brain cells behave. Repeated exposure to the drug - like long term exposure to the toxins that build up when we don't eat right or exercise - teaches the brain to adapt to the new chemical environment that it finds itself in. A new "normal" is established that requires the presence of the drug. When the drug is withdrawn, the brain now feels that its environment is not normal and doesn't behave as it had before the repeated exposure to the drug changed how it works. The brain now needs the drug to function normally. And since it's in the business of generating behaviors, it will detect that it is not functioning right and invoke behaviors that it knows - based on past experience - will correct the problem. The result is drug seeking behavior and, subsequently, continued use of the drug.
So, taken together, the "Disease Hypothesis of Addiction" is based on three key points that we have very good evidence (trust me) to back up:
1) Everything we are is merely a property of the physical phenomenon of how brain cells communicate with each other.
2) Repeated, consistent changes in the chemical environment cause biological systems to adapt and adopt a new functional "status quo". As such, the "old" environment is no longer optimal and the system responds to it differently.
3) Biological systems actively work to maintain a certain level of functioning. In the case of the brain, this means that it will initiate behaviors that it knows will alleviate the problem and get it back to functioning normally.
Consequences:
This our current working hypothesis on the cause of disease, be it diabetes, depression, or addiction. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but it's the best we can do with what we know about how biology works at the moment. Just as the brain adjusts to the presence of the drug, it will adjust to its removal as well. This is how addicts recover. The brain can generally return to it former state of happily functioning without the drug. But, even still, some of the changes caused by the drug may be permanent or at the very least stubbornly persistent. Stress, certain environments, or even ones own memories can activate these permanently changed circuits causing behaviors that lead to relapse. Luckily, humans are, for the most part, pretty smart critters that can learn to recognize these situations and suppress the activity of these abnormal circuits.
OK. Yeah. tl;dr Sorry guys.
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^^This Girl is wicked smaht^^
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Ivy thats all well but you fail to look at the reason for the behavior in the first place. Why do people take drugs? What is the problem with their lives? How did they grow up?Looking at it that way the parents become the disease and the drugs become the suppression.
Show me a drug addict and I will show you a problem with their upbringing.
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@ivy_light said: OK. Yeah. tl;dr Sorry guys.
What's that mean? I keep seeing this around here. Forgive me, I'm not hip.
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@AugustWest2001 said: @ivy_light said:too long didn't readOK. Yeah. tl;dr Sorry guys.
What's that mean? I keep seeing this around here. Forgive me, I'm not hip.
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@Sprachtor said: Ivy thats all well but you fail to look at the reason for the behavior in the first place. Why do people take drugs? What is the problem with their lives? How did they grow up?Wouldn't this theroy simply explain why a person would start to use and not the actual physiology of the addiction? While I don't disagree that emotional factors lead some (me included) down the road of escapism it seems that @Ivy_light was explaining the science once your brian is hooked. I guess a prime example would be cigaretts. They don't offer much of an escape but people get addicted. Once hooked they do seem to have a calming effect on the user but from what I understand that does not happen when you start. (I don't smoke). How would your theroy apply?
Looking at it that way the parents become the disease and the drugs become the suppression.
Show me a drug addict and I will show you a problem with their upbringing.
Sorry for my awful spelling.
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@Sprachtor said: Ivy thats all well but you fail to look at the reason for the behavior in the first place. Why do people take drugs? What is the problem with their lives? How did they grow up?Before responding to this in length, I just want to make sure that i understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that poor parenting and/or some dysfunction (a "disadvantaged" youth experience perhaps, either familial or economical) is a prerequisite to drug/alcohol addiction?
Looking at it that way the parents become the disease and the drugs become the suppression.
Show me a drug addict and I will show you a problem with their upbringing.
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I'm gonna spare everyone my story....kind of personal anyway...suffice it to say I treated my body like a rodeo parking lot for a couple of decades....it wasn't just one thing.....it was layers upon layers of all sorts of things.....hedonismI couldn't just sit quietly by myself and feel good about simply "being"....things didn't change until I started working on figuring out why I had big "holes" in my life that I was trying to fill up.....have a good laugh about the pun of filling holes...then bear with me a little longer
figuring out where the holes were....and filling them with positive things like love and family and yes, music....that is how I found my balance. My girl and I are about to have our first child in august. I am powerfully optimistic about what life has in store for me. I was never good at my job until I started working to help others instead of myself.
It feels nice to be able to sit in a quiet moment....and just be happy....needing nothing but love and air.
Balance for me wasn't a matter of swearing things off.....it was more a matter of putting things in their proper place
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@JayemOf course it would. But...in different situations you experience different outcomes. Without horrible parenting you never get ill. Your brain starts to change way before you take any drugs in bad situations. Depression kicks in and downhill you slide until you can get some relief. You take it however you get. Drugs just become the escape. The disease that spawns is poor parenting, pressure, unreal expectations, societal norms, and just general all around fear.
Your brain changes all the time. You get laid, it releases serotonin. Your walking down the street at night and you see a gang, you get scared. You post on .net and you get angry.
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@AugustWest2001 said: @ivy_light said:OK. Yeah. tl;dr Sorry guys.
What's that mean? I keep seeing this around here. Forgive me, I'm not hip.
Hahaha I just found that out a couple weeks ago myself and I'm a young 'un
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@Mr_Palmer said:
In my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices.Addiction is NOT a disease !
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing.
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@mfhgreyboy said: @Sprachtor said:Absolutely. I feel there is almost always something in the upbringing. The kid doesn't have to be disadvantaged at all. We all have different thresholds.Ivy thats all well but you fail to look at the reason for the behavior in the first place. Why do people take drugs? What is the problem with their lives? How did they grow up?Before responding to this in length, I just want to make sure that i understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that poor parenting and/or some dysfunction (a "disadvantaged" youth experience perhaps, either familial or economical) is a prerequisite to drug/alcohol addiction?
Looking at it that way the parents become the disease and the drugs become the suppression.
Show me a drug addict and I will show you a problem with their upbringing.
Most people would describe my upbringing as perfect, but in my eyes it was not.
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@listen4myHorn said:
@Jayem said:Not trolling!! and NO stats.....hows that?@BelbumSea said:He's just trolling. He at least should falsify some show stats to seem more credible.Addiction is NOT a disease !No trying to be a dick but how about an explination. I am not agreeing or disagreeing just wondering why you think this. A lot of good people spilled their guts in this thread the least you can do is offer some insight as well.
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@BelbumSea said: @listen4myHorn said:@Jayem said:Not trolling!! and NO stats.....hows that?@BelbumSea said:He's just trolling. He at least should falsify some show stats to seem more credible.Addiction is NOT a disease !No trying to be a dick but how about an explination. I am not agreeing or disagreeing just wondering why you think this. A lot of good people spilled their guts in this thread the least you can do is offer some insight as well.
no problem. wanna hug? your more agitated than us folks that have f***ed up problems.
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I had a great upbringing. My parents have been married for 40+ years and are still madly in love. I've never been abused or raped. Both of my parents earn a decent living, nothing spectacular. They showed my brother and I more love than most kids receive, and I'm an addict.
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@Sprachtor said: @JayemSo in your theroy a "good" could replace the drugs? Working out, playing the guitar, etc.. as a form of escape? Is that why you argue that it is not a disease? It is interesting because as I mentioned I battle a bit with drinking but my brother (same parents) has been drunk maybe 5 times in his life and has never done drugs. We are cut from very different molds.
Of course it would. But...in different situations you experience different outcomes. Without horrible parenting you never get ill. Your brain starts to change way before you take any drugs in bad situations. Depression kicks in and downhill you slide until you can get some relief. You take it however you get. Drugs just become the escape. The disease that spawns is poor parenting, pressure, unreal expectations, societal norms, and just general all around fear.
Your brain changes all the time. You get laid, it releases serotonin. Your walking down the street at night and you see a gang, you get scared. You post on .net and you get angry.
I have often debated this topic in my mind, which is why I am really trying to grasp your idea. I am not sure either way to be honest. I think there are convincing arguments for both sides.
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@easywind111 said:
I had a great upbringing. My parents have been married for 40+ years and are still madly in love. I've never been abused or raped. Both of my parents earn a decent living, nothing spectacular. They showed my brother and I more love than most kids receive, and I'm an addict.Hi...Do you go to 12 step meetings?
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@easywind111 said: I had a great upbringing. My parents have been married for 40+ years and are still madly in love. I've never been abused or raped. Both of my parents earn a decent living, nothing spectacular. They showed my brother and I more love than most kids receive, and I'm an addict.This is fine but I could echo every sentiment you just stated including my parents still being together 40 years. That is not a deep enough reflection on your life for me to say sure, you're right.
Unless you are willing to get personal, and really go back, it's difficult to say I'm wrong because of that.
Many people are hurt and they don't even know why? It's very fascinating actually.
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@Jayem said: @Sprachtor said:Whats the deal with you and your brother? Who was the favorite? Who was smarter, better looking, better at sports? More successful? There are so many dynamics at play. We have to look at everything but when we really search, we find things that we have carried with us that were unknown even to us.@JayemSo in your theroy a "good" could replace the drugs? Working out, playing the guitar, etc.. as a form of escape? Is that why you argue that it is not a disease? It is interesting because as I mentioned I battle a bit with drinking but my brother (same parents) has been drunk maybe 5 times in his life and has never done drugs. We are cut from very different molds.
Of course it would. But...in different situations you experience different outcomes. Without horrible parenting you never get ill. Your brain starts to change way before you take any drugs in bad situations. Depression kicks in and downhill you slide until you can get some relief. You take it however you get. Drugs just become the escape. The disease that spawns is poor parenting, pressure, unreal expectations, societal norms, and just general all around fear.
Your brain changes all the time. You get laid, it releases serotonin. Your walking down the street at night and you see a gang, you get scared. You post on .net and you get angry.
I have often debated this topic in my mind, which is why I am really trying to grasp your idea. I am not sure either way to be honest. I think there are convincing arguments for both sides.
Is he younger? Lot of variables here...
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Yes I go to 12 step meetings. I'm 2 years clean and I still go at least once a week. I don't mind getting personal. As I said before I share my story as much as possible.
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It seems as if this thread went Type II but I would like to say to everyone that your posts have certainly hit home and I'm glad to see that most have overcome there problems or are on their way to being clean and healthy. Well done everybody!
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@Jayem said: @Sprachtor said:To answer your question about a good taking the place of bad, I don't think so. Problems tend to stick with you until you really do the work. Doing the work requires feeling a lot of pain and that is something most people would rather suppress with a pill or whatever.@JayemSo in your theroy a "good" could replace the drugs? Working out, playing the guitar, etc.. as a form of escape? Is that why you argue that it is not a disease? It is interesting because as I mentioned I battle a bit with drinking but my brother (same parents) has been drunk maybe 5 times in his life and has never done drugs. We are cut from very different molds.
Of course it would. But...in different situations you experience different outcomes. Without horrible parenting you never get ill. Your brain starts to change way before you take any drugs in bad situations. Depression kicks in and downhill you slide until you can get some relief. You take it however you get. Drugs just become the escape. The disease that spawns is poor parenting, pressure, unreal expectations, societal norms, and just general all around fear.
Your brain changes all the time. You get laid, it releases serotonin. Your walking down the street at night and you see a gang, you get scared. You post on .net and you get angry.
I have often debated this topic in my mind, which is why I am really trying to grasp your idea. I am not sure either way to be honest. I think there are convincing arguments for both sides.
But I don't think the problem has to manifest in drug use.
You could be a degenerate gambler like the males of my family.
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@Tebowie, I get it each person even with the same parents and similar upbringing have different issues but isn't it safe to say everyone has insecurities, stress, etc... ? What I am wondering is are you suggesting that someone like my brother has simply opted to handle those factors in a different way? It surely can't mean those feelings don't exist with in him. While I chose to explore drugs and alcohol? Edit: I posted this prior to your last post but will leave it up any way. Thanks for the quality conversation, by the way.
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@Jayem said: @Tebowie, I get it each person even with the same parents and similar upbringing have different issues but isn't it safe to say everyone has insecurities, stress, etc... ? What I am wondering is are you suggesting that someone like my brother has simply opted to handle those factors in a different way? It surely can't mean those feelings don't exist with in him. While I chose to explore drugs and alcohol?Sure he could have. He might have his own problems with his personality that isn't smoking herb and doing other drugs and numbing you out. You have to learn to live and accept all emotions even if they don't feel good and make you angry or upset. After coming out of a period of numbing yourself out for years, it will take a while before you are truly able to feel again. Some of us are wired better for handling the stresses and insecurities though and your brother could be one example.
Edit: I posted this prior to your last post but will leave it up any way. Thanks for the quality conversation, by the way.
What is important is going within yourself and figuring out what hurts and feeling it and understanding it. Until you do you will always carry it with you.
For me my stress and pain always got stored in my stomach until I eventually started having stomach issues. I was the king of suppression. Just a warning my body was giving me that I need to listen to it and my heart.
Listen to your body!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@TeBowie:Why do some people try drugs in the first place? What drives that initial behavior that sets off a chain reaction leading to profound changes in the brains of some subset of the people who do it, causing them to suffer from addiction? Your guess is as good as mine. But let's explore this, anyway, and let's do so in a way that incorporates your idea that social experience early in childhood might confer some sort of susceptibility towards initial drug experimentation and/or eventual addiction.
Just a reminder. I think I've pretty much hammered this home but it's just so important that it bears repeating here:
Everything we are is a property of the electrical signals between brain cells.
OK. So, two things I'd like to convince you of: 1) The "Disease Hypothesis" doesn't conflict with the idea that early experience can possibly set up circuits that confer susceptibility to addiction; and, 2) Susceptibility to addiction and perhaps even experimentation with drugs may be largely determined long before the brain receives any social information at all.
First, asking why some people try drugs in the first place is different from asking why a subset of those who try them get addicted while others do not. However, the same hypothesis that I've outlined above can be used to explain both cases. Early experiences do have an impact on brain development and a profound one at that so you're definitely right there. But even still, that fact doesn't conflict with the basic hypothesis I outlined. The hypothesis makes no claims that environmental exposure or social experience X leads directly the formation of brain circuit Y which in turn absolutely predicts that the impacted individual is going to either be driven to try drugs or will be susceptible to addiction upon repeated use. In fact, it actually incorporates changes driven by childhood experience into it, since these experiences serve as stimuli that drive the engine of circuit formation just as well as exogenous chemical exposure does.
That having been said, I'll give you this example and use it to make the second point I'd like to make:
I had essentially the same upbringing as my brother and sister. My brother never tried opiates. My sister did but did not become an addict. I'm an addict.
One conclusion from our recent work is that individuality and uniqueness between different brains arises primarily from the somewhat random way in which brain cells learn to wire together - which connections are strengthened and retained versus which ones are weakened and subsequently eliminated - as opposed to differences in environment. We have found that individuality starts in the womb when brain cells are making their very first contacts with each other and starting to talk to one another. (Just trust me on that one. I see it in the lab every day.) The variability between brains is HUGE before birth. Much, MUCH greater than it is after birth. And these differences develop in the complete absence of social experience and even in an environment having very little in the way of sensory stimuli. Furthermore, younger brains are far more "plastic" and their circuits more "changeable" than those of mature brains (this is fact - it's why, for example, it's easier to learn a second language as a child than when you're an adult). So:
1) Individuality begins as soon as brain circuits start to form in utero and in fact is greater at these very youngest stages of development than it is at any time afterwards.
Taken together with...
2) The younger the brain, the greater it's capacity for changing it's circuitry.
...essentially leads to the hypothesis that...
Con) The random nature of initial circuit formation that occurs at the very earliest stages of development contributes more significantly to the established differences between individual mature brains than subsequent postnatal environmental differences/experiences.
QED (sort of...)
So, to reiterate:
A) The "Disease Hypothesis of Addiction" does not conflict with the fact that postnatal sensory and/or social experience can confer susceptibility towards either the formation of a circuit that predicts "drug trying" and/or one that predicts whether an individual that tries drugs will eventually become addicted; and,
B) Our current understanding is that stochastic differences in the very earliest, experience-independent processes in circuit formation have a far greater effect on determining the final structure of the mature circuit than postnatal sensory environment or social experience.
Again...tl;dr. Maybe some of this makes sense...
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I don't know what all of that means , but I was the kind of kid that if you told me to not do something, then I was gonna do it. When people would come to my elementary school and talk about how dangerous drugs were, I couldn't wait to try them. I started using at a young age, and I was good at getting away with it. I figured if I stayed high all the time then no one would know anything was wrong with me.
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I prefer to keep personal issues out of the interwebzz, I don't really talk about addiction that much and like I said, I don't like to write details about my problems on a forum where anyone and everyone can read it. My username isn't that far out and if someone tried looking them could place my handle with who I am through music i've posted on the web, etc. Anywho, if anyone ever needs someone to talk to about addiction just send me a pm, the door is always open so to speak. MY only experience in addiction is with pharms, just opiates. I've never done anything else as far as opiates are concerned. That's about all I will say publicaly but as I said, that was a problem of the (more recent) past so I am still dealing with it. Always open to talking with anyone that needs help. I know how rough it can be.
Life is too short to live in a haze!
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@IvylightIt all makes sense as science does but it doesn't account for the factors I care about. If your point is that drugs are going to appeal to some of us more than others and some will have tremendous difficulty getting off them, then I agree. I wouldn't classify that as a disease. In fact, disease is a cop out to me. It says hey, I suffer from a disease cut me some slack. I am a type A dude who has been addicted to everything. But my addiction stemmed from things in my environment and upbringing, not some gene that says I am predisposed to popping pills. I am totally against all drugs for therapeutic purposes and believe the worse thing you can do to a child is give him speed so he can concentrate better. When you keep telling people there is something wrong with them they are eventually gonna agree. Scientists have become part of the problem claiming everything from a broken toe-nail to a runny nose is a disease. I suffered from everything mentioned but I got through it by working on myself. You know what, I don't have a disease. There was a period in my life where I couldn't see any light.
Today I am as happy as I have been in a decade. Drugs didn't help me, soul searching and expressing myself and working on myself did. Now I love myself and as @Roybelly said, I do things for the right reason, not for my ambitions or anyone's expectations of me.
To my original point, I may have said gene (addiction gene) but my experiences shape who I am. Therefore parenting becomes the disease that spreads. All you have to do is walk through any public school in the U.S. and it will be obvious. That is a disease that need to be eradicated.
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Sadly you can pinpoint all the kids that are gonna go down the wrong path when they're in Elementary School. Is that science??? In a way it is. I can scientifically pin point the students who need love and attention and if they don't get it they are going to rebel and do something destructive to themselves or possibly someone else.
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@Tebowie,I agree with alot of what you just said and liken it to people that are overweight. They are told it's in their genes or have some issue that make them that way. When in reality 2% of people(total guess) actually have a condition causing them to be fat. When I was 21 I was sick of being out of shape and fat. I made life changes and lost nearly 80 pounds by dealing with my issues head on. No fad diets, drugs, or surgery. I know it is not the same thing exactly but I see stong similarities to what you just described
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@Sprachtor addiction is a disease as far as the definition of disease goes, which is pretty ambiguous in and of itself. Some diseases are inherent, others are acquired. You're jumping into the great nature/nurture debate, which the greatest minds in the world of science cannot agree on. I think that someone's upbringing has a lot to do with the choices they make, including the choice to mess with a substance that they have been warned can become addictive to them. Someone who might have some problems at home is more likely to say "f*** it" to their own well-being, therefore it can be argued they are more prone to addiction.
On the other hand, you can take a panel of experts, put them in a room and have them come up with the most ideal human being, with the most ideal genetics, most ideal parents and childhood, in the most ideal town in the most ideal country in the world, give them the most ideal friends, etc. etc. and that person can still succumb to addiction.
To say that addiction is not a disease because its a behavior caused by an outside chemical is besides the point. most diseases are introduced to the body from an outside source. I agree with you that way too many people use the "addiction is a disease" argument as an excuse, to absolve themselves of any personal responsibility for their state. Its easier to say "I have a disease, it isnt my fault" than it is to look in the mirror and say "I did this to myself".
Take STDs for example. They are diseases that, except in the case of mother-to-baby transmission, are acquired in the process of doing something irresponsible.
Oh yeah, I said I wouldnt say anything else in this thread, so I guess Im going back on that. My bad.
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@Jayem said: @Tebowie,Disease has become a very liberal term. In schools you have thirty classifications for students with some minor issues and they throw them on pills and they are all ill with varying illness. Then you have the commercials for the prescription drugs and people start questioning their health. "Hmmm...Maybe I am sick". Everyone is checking webmd every five minutes.
I agree with alot of what you just said and liken it to people that are overweight. They are told it's in their genes or have some issue that make them that way. When in reality 2% of people(total guess) actually have a condition causing them to be fat. When I was 21 I was sick of being out of shape and fat. I made life changes and lost nearly 80 pounds by dealing with my issues head on. No fad diets, drugs, or surgery. I know it is not the same thing exactly but I see stong similarities to what you just described
All this media BS perpetuates the problem. These commercials that the pharmaceutical companies put out cause panic and ultimately lead to massive dough in their pockets. Disease is an industry and it's thriving right now.
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@benevolution said: I want to know about this person.
On the other hand, you can take a panel of experts, put them in a room and have them come up with the most ideal human being, with the most ideal genetics, most ideal parents and childhood, in the most ideal town in the most ideal country in the world, give them the most ideal friends, etc. etc. and that person can still succumb to addiction.
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Guess @Ivylight is DWD
Had to
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Deep, well articulated conversations going on in here - I like it. @Sprachtor, I tend to disagree with a lot of what you say, but I certainly respect the thought behind your beliefs, and there is nothing I know, for a certainty, that would prove you wrong to your satisfaction. Frankly, I'm not so sure that there is "an" answer. In certain respects, the arguments about the source/cause of addiction remind me of the "prove to me that God exists" v. "prove god doesn't" debate.
When I was in early recovery I spent a lot of time thinking about the disease model and struggled with it exactly because it seemed to relieve me of a degree of responsibility that I wasn't willing to relinquish. For me, I needed to feel that responsibility. I needed to own that in order for me to have the type of breakthrough that has allowed me to go for over 2 years without a drink. After a while, I realized that whether it's a disease or not doesn't matter (to me). The simple fact is, I'm an alcoholic. I believe that I always will be.
I did a lot of soul searching in my recovery as well. I never uncovered the type of issues with my upbringing or environment during my formative years that you believe must exist for me. Perhaps I haven't looked long or deep enough to find them, but the changes I've made in my life have kept me from drinking, completely changed my perspective on life and family and allowed me to be happier than I've been in well over a decade.
I hope this doesn't come off as too argumentative, because that isn't my point. Just wanted to continue the discussion.
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@BelbumSea said: @Mr_Palmer said:Sorry for the troll comment. Glad to see you responded back. You have some truth to your opinion. One can "stop using" without a 12 step program. Some can do this and presumably live normal happy lives but there are other people who end up being "Dry drunks". Basically miserable people who continue to act out their character defects. These defects are often the traits that they drank/used to cover up and avoid feeling, or worse were enhanced while they drank and used. Alcohol/drug abuse is a symptom of the disease. So removing that does not cure the disease itself.In my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices.Addiction is NOT a disease !
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing.
One misstatement you make is that 12-Step groups allows people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices. This couldn't be further from the truth. Steps 4, 8,9, and 10 deal directly with harms caused to others, the alcoholics part in the wrongs/harms and specific actions that need to be taken to right the wrongs. To keep our sobriety we have to face our actions directly and make amends.
Those that go to meetings but don't do the step work are more likely to fall into your categorization.
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I suggest looking at the matter in a different light....many disease processes have genetic and behavioral components that go hand in hand and trying to isolate one and pin the whole thing on one doesn't really account for everything that is in play.cardiovascular disease is a great example.....some people are genetically screwed and it is an uphill battle....but there is certainly a behavioral component involved for most people
my back is like Ivy's...I have had 5 surgeries....multiple levels fused....it was my first exposure to opiates.....some of that is genetic....some of my back problem has to do with behavioral choices I made....playing football....extreme sports....adrenaline junking
genetic predisposition doesn't explain everything.....but combine genetics with behavior and often that leads to "disease process"...trying to isolate nature or nurture just doesn't really get to the heart of "disease process". Many diseases (addiction included) are a process of both genetics and behavior combined
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@ADAWGWYO said: 11 months sober on Valentine's Day. I celebrated with Trey.I know I am double posting, but I just want to give a shout out to @ADAWGWYO on this one.....we grew up together. Congrats my man....that is awesome. The shit we have done doesn't have to define us.....what we DO going forward defines us
Sometimes, it takes a blind man to say......
Don't ya see?
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@mfhgreyboyYeah, no harm no foul. Totally respect your opinions, I love discussion about anything. But in this case I have very strong beliefs because of the path I have walked. It isn't some theorized BS I have thought about and not practiced.
Your case in particular worries me. From your last post you seem very unsure of your thoughts. Then you claim how your family is part of the reason for you not drinking today. When I hear that it sounds like unresolved issues. I don't know you as a person besides what I read here, which I enjoy thoroughly, but there are answers to your personal situation if you listen. The crisis you went through has answers. Every time you have a pain, headache, cold, heart burn, etc etc your body is sending you a message and has something to tell you. In fact best practice would suggest laying down in your bed in total solitude and listening to your body and totally trying to understand it for 5 or so minutes a day. When you focus on it you will be surprised at what you come to learn about your self.
Whenever I have pain I listen and FEEL IT and never suppress it. OK when at the GYM I do a little bit. But to my point don't give up on trying to find IT. It is out there and will help you to avoid falling into any pitfalls you have previously stumbled through.
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Oh and I know how people want to put the past behind them. That doesn't work until it is resolved. You can't bury it. It may seem scary to go through the proverbial closet but feel it out and understand it.I went through a period where I couldn't even listen to emotional music because I was so scared of the feelings that would arise. Now I embrace it and if a tear comes to my eye, so be it. Sadness and pain are parts of our lives also.
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I Hate Society's Constructions of Expectations & Views on Drugs.
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I've watched this tread progress and have deliberately avoided jumping in at points. It's fascinating really. There are so many here who have scientific expertise, personal experience and a desire to participate in a meaningful discussion. There also seems to be an angry lot, bent on armchair psychology and pseudo-science with a desire to make proclamations asserting a particular unsupported point of view. Instead of lurking I'll just chime in and say that I support anyone who is struggling with life and honest.
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@listen4myHorn said:
@BelbumSea said:That being said....If a 12 step program is working and keeping you from stealing your Moms credit card......its hard to say that it is a bad thing!@Mr_Palmer said:Sorry for the troll comment. Glad to see you responded back. You have some truth to your opinion. One can "stop using" without a 12 step program. Some can do this and presumably live normal happy lives but there are other people who end up being "Dry drunks". Basically miserable people who continue to act out their character defects. These defects are often the traits that they drank/used to cover up and avoid feeling, or worse were enhanced while they drank and used. Alcohol/drug abuse is a symptom of the disease. So removing that does not cure the disease itself.In my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices.Addiction is NOT a disease !
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing.
One misstatement you make is that 12-Step groups allows people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices. This couldn't be further from the truth. Steps 4, 8,9, and 10 deal directly with harms caused to others, the alcoholics part in the wrongs/harms and specific actions that need to be taken to right the wrongs. To keep our sobriety we have to face our actions directly and make amends.
Those that go to meetings but don't do the step work are more likely to fall into your categorization.
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@BelbumSea said: "@listen4myHorn said: "@BelbumSea said: "@Mr_Palmer said: ""Addiction is NOT a disease ! "
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing."In my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices."
Sorry for the troll comment. Glad to see you responded back. You have some truth to your opinion. One can "stop using" without a 12 step program. Some can do this and presumably live normal happy lives but there are other people who end up being "Dry drunks". Basically miserable people who continue to act out their character defects. These defects are often the traits that they drank/used to cover up and avoid feeling, or worse were enhanced while they drank and used. Alcohol/drug abuse is a symptom of the disease. So removing that does not cure the disease itself.
One misstatement you make is that 12-Step groups allows people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices. This couldn't be further from the truth. Steps 4, 8,9, and 10 deal directly with harms caused to others, the alcoholics part in the wrongs/harms and specific actions that need to be taken to right the wrongs. To keep our sobriety we have to face our actions directly and make amends.
Those that go to meetings but don't do the step work are more likely to fall into your categorization."That being said....If a 12 step program is working and keeping you from stealing your Moms credit card......its hard to say that it is a bad thing!"Didn't mean "you" personally!
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing."In my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices."
Sorry for the troll comment. Glad to see you responded back. You have some truth to your opinion. One can "stop using" without a 12 step program. Some can do this and presumably live normal happy lives but there are other people who end up being "Dry drunks". Basically miserable people who continue to act out their character defects. These defects are often the traits that they drank/used to cover up and avoid feeling, or worse were enhanced while they drank and used. Alcohol/drug abuse is a symptom of the disease. So removing that does not cure the disease itself.
One misstatement you make is that 12-Step groups allows people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices. This couldn't be further from the truth. Steps 4, 8,9, and 10 deal directly with harms caused to others, the alcoholics part in the wrongs/harms and specific actions that need to be taken to right the wrongs. To keep our sobriety we have to face our actions directly and make amends.
Those that go to meetings but don't do the step work are more likely to fall into your categorization."That being said....If a 12 step program is working and keeping you from stealing your Moms credit card......its hard to say that it is a bad thing!"Didn't mean "you" personally!
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And the new philosophy brings all in doubt,The element of fire is quite put out,
The sun is lost, and so, the Earth,
And no man's wit
can well direct him where to look for it.
@TeBowie
Just for a minute, I'm going to abandon everything I've learned over the past 10 years of studying brain development as my life's true and unwaivering passion. Let's forget all the solid scientific evidence that clearly, logically, and elegantly demonstrates that the brain sees absolutely no distinction between a rise in neurotransmitter levels that is caused by environmental factors or learning or experience and one caused by a drug. Just for the sake of arguing my point from a completely different angle, I'm giving up everything we've learned about how the physical world around us works over the past 500 years since the methods of modern science were first codified.
I'm kicking science to the curb.
So what do we have left?
On one hand, we have my beliefs - which state that the human mind and all it encompasses - our thoughts, our beliefs, our morality, our reason, our understanding of each other as thinking beings - is simply an emergent property of the activity of our brains, physical organs made from the same matter that constitutes the stars and galaxies and which therefore obeys all the same physical laws.
On the other hand, we have your beliefs. Now please correct me if I'm wrong. In believing that the state of our minds is determined by our choices, experiences, etc. and that these choices, experiences, etc do not (although it has been scientifically suggested by rigorous evaluation) impose the same physical changes on our brains that chemicals which mimic the actions of neurotransmitters do, you must conclude that brains - and therefore minds - do not obey the physical laws of nature. As such, it stands to reason that that which confers upon our minds the power to do all the things that minds do is extrinsic to the brain. You are invoking the animus - the mysterious soul substance from which the mind is made.
That's fine. There's no problem with that. I actually buy it as possible simply because I have no solid way of refuting it or corroborating it.
It follows then, by this line of reasoning, that this animus stuff from which our minds are made is ultimately responsible for every mental action we preform. Every choice we make is determined by the mysterious actions of this substance we cannot directly test the existence of. We could even go so far as to say that the animus can physically alters brains somehow, and we could even suppose that brains make the animus somehow, and if we follow this logic, we can conclude that our minds can physically change our brains which in turn physically changes our minds, etc. etc.
Now, let's suppose that we expose the brain/mind (now one thing causally linked to one another via the production and action of animus) to a drug that alters the mind. It changes the ability of the mind - made up of animus - to alter the brain - which we've supposed is the source of the animus.
I ask you: How is this any logically different, any less logically sound than my belief that drugs act to change the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain which in turn causes structural changes in the the connections between brain cells which in turn alters behavior which affects our reasoning capabilities, our cognitive functions, our moral judgements, etc. etc. all of which I take to be the simple result of the physical properties of how brain cells communicate with one another?
The answer is: It's not any different. Except in one simple regard...
I can't prove the existence of the animus.
This is my final attempt at arguing this using the most efficacious of human mental capabilities: Logic.
I also urge you to use your logical capabilities and at the very least consider that ethical implications of your beliefs. If the state of our brains is solely determined by our choices, then it follows that the frenzied state of a schizophrenic's mind might also determined by his choices. Did the schizophrenic really choose to physically alter his brain such that his thoughts became abnormal, irrational, diseased? Surely not. But if our brain's state is determined solely by our choices, he must have. It is the only logical way that he could have ended up with his abnormal mind. Therefore, the culpability behind his disorder lies solely with him. Now, we as a society don't see it as right to make choices that lead to abnormal behaviors. Abnormal social behavior is oftentimes criminal. So the schizophrenic's choice - which he had no other option but to have made - might be construed as criminal. His brain state/mind is abnormal and society deems it as such but it had to be his choice that made it that way so the blame lies solely with the schizophrenic. He is a criminal now.
/end logical rant.
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Let's deconstruct the word "disease":Dis - a Latin prefix meaning “apart,” “asunder,” “away,” “utterly,” or having a privative, negative, or reversing force
Ease - freedom from labor, pain, or physical annoyance; tranquil rest; comfort:
Alcoholism/addiction...it's a disease. If you're not an alcoholic/addict I understand this may be tough to grasp. It was tough for me to grasp in early sobriety. No right minded individual would choose to live the way an active addict/alcoholic lives. If I'd had the choice to drink moderately or do cocaine in a "socially acceptable manner", I would have definitely done that but I am incapable of it. It's not possible. I simply have a different chemical make-up than the average, temperate drinker.
The disease of alcoholism has been often described as a "physical allergy combined with a mental obsession".
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but consider this, straight from the American Medical Association:
"The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases."
I'd also encourage anyone who's been active in this thread to read this:
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/genetics/a/genome_map.htm http://alcoholism.about.com/od/genetics/a/genome_map.htm
Score: 2
@BelbumSea said: @Mr_Palmer said:disease /dis·ease/ (dĭ-zēz´) any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptoms and signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknownIn my opinion "Addiction" is a choice, a thought dis-order at most.You can beat the drug dependency with out using the "twelve step" disease model as a way out of this.....I know people who are living proof.Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices.Addiction is NOT a disease !
Definitely would like to hear your reasoning. I've always been on the fence about that claim. I have trouble thinking of it as a disease because I brought it entirely upon myself. My grandmother, as I mentioned earlier, has MS. That is a real disease. The many members of my family I've lost to lung cancer, that's a disease. However, my mother has battled opiate addiction her whole life. My dads a drunk. His mom was a drunk. I feel like I may have inherited some bad genes, but I still can't say I have a disease.
I also want to mention that this thread is in no way cut off from Marijuana addicts. It's a "drug." If it's consuming your life and you know you'd be better off without it, that's an addiction. All stories welcome. Thank you again everybody these stories are amazing.
In the case of alcohol and opiate addiction, it is a proven medical fact that the enzymes needed to metabolize (break down and remove) alcohol or opiates are not produced in the same quantities by the body of an addict, as they are by the body of a "normal" person. This effects the liver and pancreas, and actually produces a chemical reaction that causes the body to crave more of the toxin. As the addicts body receives more toxin, the chemical process tells the brain to crave more, and the vicious cycle continues. A normal person's body has the enzymes necessary to break down the toxin, and when the toxin level exceeds the breakdown rate, the body rejects the toxin by becoming sick or passing out altogether.
The fact that the metabolic process, and the enzyme levels are different in an addict than they are from a non-addict IS the definition of disease. There is almost no debate in the medical community about this. I respect everyone's opinion, and know we all have different experiences to draw upon, but I choose to believe the science of the medical professionals rather than personal opinion.
As far as "Twelve step groups who promote the disease model actually encourage addiction by allowing people to feel blameless for the consequences of their choices", that is the farthest thing from the truth I heave read in this thread. After 8 years clean and sober, and still heavily involved in 12 step work, I have found that the disease model is key to explaining to an addict why their body reacts with such a strong craving for, and violent withdrawl from, a substance. They are not completely insane (although there are many psychological variables that lead to the first drink or drug). Also, the core principles of 12-step programs include examining your own faults, releasing blame and resentments of others, and making amends to all those you have harmed. That is the opposite of blaming your consequences on the fact that you have a disease.
I'm sorry for the rant, but I have been very interested in this thread since I read and posted here yesterday. It is an important subject for me because of my personal history and the fact that I lost a friend just last week. If this thread can plant a seed in someone, or give someone the courage to ASK FOR HELP, then it is worth it. If anyone is curious about 12-step programs and would like to chat, you can PM me. -Thanks-