@chris200w said:

Is instrumental music really that boring to people that they need someone singing over it in order to enjoy it?

Yes.

I cant answer your question.

But driving down to spring break one year ('95 or '96) packed 4 in a little car, probably a 15 hour drive, troll'd listening to everyone's crappy music. Eventually I slip in a phish tape, and after less than 15 minutes, one of the guys says, "I'm sorry, but can we please listen to something else? Just anything with words...?"

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

I enjoy all their voices. No none of them would be a vocalist if it wasn't for their INSANE instrumental abilities, but they hit notes, they rock harmonies, they sound good. Will any of them be joining the Three Tenors? Nope. But they are decent vocalists and that is okay cause they are the best living musicians in my opinion. There may be many others just as good, but it is hard to find anyone better.

@johnnyd said:

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

I have seen this discomfort in many people. It is caused by the tension and release element of a lot of Phish's music. To those of us that get it this is part of what set Phish apart. They build crazy tension and build and build and build until they finally resolve it (the reease) and it feels so good. I think the general public just doesn't have the patients to stick around for the release. This is also my issue with the general public and music in general. They need their hook within 5 seconds of the song starting or else they don't like it. I see it all the time in the bar business. It is sad really. Not to get too deep into this, but I also think that is a major flaw in modern society. People have forgotten patients. We need everything and we need it now. They don't realize how much better that hook is going to sound and feel if they wait for it.

Patients is a virtue my friends. Go remind someone

@Jimmymac03 said:

@landladylover said:

Their vocals sound great these days. The lyrics always have a purpose. It's just that it isn't obvious to people who can barely listen to music, or choose to dig deeper into it. You have to think about the music, as well as hear it. And re-listen, etc...not for lazy folks!

This is true too, their vocals in 2011 really were blowing me away. Really nailing it.

Dicks was the smoothest vocal performance of last year Can't wait to hear them again on Leg 2. It seems to get better as they go...

I never get why Phish fans don't get why people dont like Phish. No words, bad lyrics, too much jamming, poor vocals. To a fan those are crazy reasons but as an outsider they are all pretty logical reasons, and as a fan I can understand why alot of people feel that way. This phenomenon is not unique to music. It's the same for food, art, clothes, sports. You ever tell a NASCAR fan his sport is boring? Get ready for a rant of how you don't get and why it is the best. That sounds familiar right?

When ever some one starts rambling off Phish Sterotypes to me I do the same thing to something they are into. This usually proves my point. It's not for everyone.

We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice. -Jerry Garcia

@johnnyd said:

I cant answer your question.

But driving down to spring break one year ('95 or '96) packed 4 in a little car, probably a 15 hour drive, troll'd listening to everyone's crappy music. Eventually I slip in a phish tape, and after less than 15 minutes, one of the guys says, "I'm sorry, but can we please listen to something else? Just anything with words...?"

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

This is my life.

Boy. Man. God. Shit. Sounds like enough lyrics to me.

@Jimmymac03 said:

@Sativar said:

@Jimmymac03 said:

@johnnyd said:

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

I have seen this discomfort in many people. It is caused by the tension and release element of a lot of Phish's music. To those of us that get it this is part of what set Phish apart. They build crazy tension and build and build and build until they finally resolve it (the reease) and it feels so good. I think the general public just doesn't have the patients to stick around for the release. This is also my issue with the general public and music in general. They need their hook within 5 seconds of the song starting or else they don't like it. I see it all the time in the bar business. It is sad really. Not to get too deep into this, but I also think that is a major flaw in modern society. People have forgotten patients. We need everything and we need it now. They don't realize how much better that hook is going to sound and feel if they wait for it.

Patients is a virtue my friends. Go remind someone

Patients are not typically a virtue...

Patience, however, is a virtue.

Dealing with those who can not grasp the concept of homonyms requires patience.

Well thank you for being so patient with me. God I feel like an ass. You guys are so smart with your proper word formations and usages.

You have made me more virtuous... or condescending, depending on your point of view. I typically let that stuff go, but this one was so good, I had to bite on it.

The best one I have come across was from a Facebook "friend" who I keep around simply for the laughs that her University of Phoenix education provides.

Her post was something along the lines of "Some people really need to look up the definition of morels [sic] in the dictionary..." Blah, blah blah - indiscretion, foul language, etc... She continued to rant about looking up morels [sic] in the dictionary.

If she had heeded her own advice, she would have realized that morels are amazingly tasty mushrooms which are extremely difficult to farm, and as a result typically can only be obtained via foraging.

/threadjack

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love Phish vocals! Emotional Rescue this summer FTW!!!

@johnnyd said:

I cant answer your question.

But driving down to spring break one year ('95 or '96) packed 4 in a little car, probably a 15 hour drive, troll'd listening to everyone's crappy music. Eventually I slip in a phish tape, and after less than 15 minutes, one of the guys says, "I'm sorry, but can we please listen to something else? Just anything with words...?"

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

SO. TRUE. Happens to me all the time. To be honest, I used to be like that too. Before I found the Dead. But know that I've been converted, it's hard to look back.

I think many people can agree with me that listening to the radio these days is incredibly boring, you realize how similar all the songs are, and all the good ones fly by at 3:00 long. It reminds me, I was playing the Doors with someone in my car, and I put on The End. It's 12:00 long. My friend said "Holy Crap! This is such a long song! Who would have the time to listen to this all the way through?"

That's why people don't like Phish. It's hard for people to see past their prejudices about the music. Because it's so different, when they listen, they listen for the things that they think they don't like (Few vocals, weird words, long instrumentals). When they find what they're looking for, they say they hate it.

@Sativar said:

@Jimmymac03 said:

@johnnyd said:

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

I have seen this discomfort in many people. It is caused by the tension and release element of a lot of Phish's music. To those of us that get it this is part of what set Phish apart. They build crazy tension and build and build and build until they finally resolve it (the reease) and it feels so good. I think the general public just doesn't have the patients to stick around for the release. This is also my issue with the general public and music in general. They need their hook within 5 seconds of the song starting or else they don't like it. I see it all the time in the bar business. It is sad really. Not to get too deep into this, but I also think that is a major flaw in modern society. People have forgotten patients. We need everything and we need it now. They don't realize how much better that hook is going to sound and feel if they wait for it.

Patients is a virtue my friends. Go remind someone

Patients are not typically a virtue...

Patience, however, is a virtue.

Dealing with those who can not grasp the concept of homonyms requires patience.

That commint was the epidamy of pretenshisness. Your pretty rude.

@CannedWalrus said:

@Sativar said:

@Jimmymac03 said:

@johnnyd said:

I could hear the stress in his voice, it was really driving him nuts. No idea why. I guess it is a little hectic and unpredictable and thus potentially disorienting or overwhelming compared to 4-chord pop.

I have seen this discomfort in many people. It is caused by the tension and release element of a lot of Phish's music. To those of us that get it this is part of what set Phish apart. They build crazy tension and build and build and build until they finally resolve it (the reease) and it feels so good. I think the general public just doesn't have the patients to stick around for the release. This is also my issue with the general public and music in general. They need their hook within 5 seconds of the song starting or else they don't like it. I see it all the time in the bar business. It is sad really. Not to get too deep into this, but I also think that is a major flaw in modern society. People have forgotten patients. We need everything and we need it now. They don't realize how much better that hook is going to sound and feel if they wait for it.

Patients is a virtue my friends. Go remind someone

Patients are not typically a virtue...

Patience, however, is a virtue.

Dealing with those who can not grasp the concept of homonyms requires patience.

That commint was the epidamy of pretenshisness. Your pretty rude.

lol

This is a real interesting topic. A lot of times, whether intentionally or unintentionally, people have made me feel a little disappointed in myself for not knowing all the lyrics to a song or whatever; when they loudly sing along and I don't know all the words, it makes me feel (incorrectly) like I don't really know the song, and they have some sort of musical "prowess" above my own.

That being said, there are times where I am entranced by a groove or a jam or whatever, and others are bored or feel the need to change the song.

I don't really have a strong opinion on which is "better" (lyrics or instrumentals?) but feel like starting to listen to Phish a few years ago was one of the best things that ever happened to me. With almost anything I listen to (or am forced to listen to, with the exception of heavy electronic dance stuff, "manufactured music" as I call it because it's entirely produced by machines) I can hear something good in it. I don't like pop country music (the vocals really irritate me and come off as fake/trying too hard most of the time) but I can totally dig the steel guitars and banjos behind it.

Listening to lots of Phish jams - especially the long type II's - somehow taught me to have more patience with instrumentals, to allow them to develop better. A jam doesn't have to be crazy shredding the whole time (like with AC/DC, Van Halen, or other heavy stuff) as I thought before I started listening to them. It doesn't have to

I find Phish's jams to be so timeless and constantly enticing because they're given the time to develop, hit peaks and troughs, repeat a melody for a few measures, quiet down, get loud, switch to a minor key, switch to a major key, move into a funky groove, get distorted, get dissonant, infuse electronics, infuse vocals, tease other songs, give prominence to the bass/keys/guitar/percussion/horns....you really just never know. They're always interesting to me.

Consequently, this exposure just opened my mind to a wealth of genres, subgenres, etc. To name a few artists they turned me onto over the past few years: Bob Dylan, Grateful Dead, Neil Young, Miles Davis, Neutral Milk Hotel, Traffic, Bela Fleck & Flecktones, Wilco, The Band, Greyboy Allstars, Herbie Hancock, Galactic, Mofro, Railroad Earth, MMJ, Pavement...oh my gosh, the list goes on. And I also started checking out more of the complete works of some of my previous favorite artists, getting past those 10 songs they play on the radio.

Spread the word. Give your friends a dose of Phish, and good things will happen.

@CannedWalrus said:

That commint was the epidamy of pretenshisness. Your pretty rude.

Dam strait! Serves him right for making that add homonym attack!

I think that lyrics and singing do matter, quite a lot.

I sort of understand why Phish's lyrics are criticized. The early songs have a lot of senseless and silly words in them. On the other hand, Trey has always been aware of the special way that the words can shape the music. Not just the meaning of the words, but their sound and syllables. Just think of the lyrics from Lizards or Colonel Forbin's Ascent. They might not be deep and meaningful, but the words were specially chosen for the way they fit with the music. This has continued and expanded with Tom Marshall's lyrics. In my opinion, there are relatively few artists who capture this aspect as well as Phish. You have to look to guys like Paul Simon, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, etc. I'm not saying that Phish's lyrics are as meaningful as those guys, but the words themselves are as well chosen and carefully placed. With this in mind, I would say that the lyrics in Phish songs are actually above average quality.

What do people consider to be good when they say Phish has bad lyrics? I sincerely want to know.

As far as singing, well, this is the glaring weakness of Phish. They've become somewhat better singers over the years (Didn't Trey take vocal lessons around the time of the 3.0 reunion?). Still, at best they are average singers amongst the 'real world', and well below average for nationally known acts. But, even if they were strong singers, I doubt that they would be much more accessible. The phans would appreciate that aspect of their perfomances, but it wouldn't change the structure of their songs and shows or the philosophy of the band. Maybe they would have had a few minor mainstream hits, but overall I don't think it would change much about the perception of the band.

I do not pay much attention to lyrics when I listen to music. I hear the melody, which is very important to me, but the actual words don't really matter. This is probably why getting into Phish was so easy to me. No lyrical hangups. You want to sing about vasoconstrictors? Be my guest, just make sure the melody is there to back it up.

This is the problem with a lot of Trey's solo work, at least since his untitled album. The melodies are bad. Same goes for TTE. I loved that song first time I heard it as an instrumental, but those melodies laid over top RUIN it.