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I'm not specifically suggesting that these two should (or shouldn't 
) be compared (just wanted to choose an engaging title).
However I did want to point out that the Dicks shows are the first three or more consecutive shows (not just runs at one location) with a 4.5+ rating since the Island tour.
Pretty crazy when you think about it. Pretty exciting time.
) be compared (just wanted to choose an engaging title). However I did want to point out that the Dicks shows are the first three or more consecutive shows (not just runs at one location) with a 4.5+ rating since the Island tour.
Pretty crazy when you think about it. Pretty exciting time.
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The Light from Dick's was wayyyy better
Score: 5
Yes Dicks was my favorite 3 or more day run since the Island tour.
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YEM 4/5/98 is wayyy better
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still kicking myself for not driving up from AZ.
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Jamaica Mon
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Boy, that's a tough call. If we are rating overall and not just by song then I would vote Dicks 2012. edit: Maybe. Shit. I don't know. Twist is my favorite jammy jam, the island tour has my favorite twist, and so...
Okay, overall still Dicks.
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The battle of the two heavy weights!
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Nothing compares to island tour
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@Drgordy said: Nothing compares to island tourYeah, as crazy fantastic as Dick's 2012 was, there wasn't a set that compares to 4/3/98 II.
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Dick's better than the Island Tour? Seriously? No.
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if you were into the band back then, it's hard to separate that experience from the 'meaning' of the music. it's got to be personal!the island tour sounds effortless -- it's not really a push forward, as i hear it. they're at their peak, they don't give a damn (neither does anyone else), and the music doesn't need to go anywhere. the island twist is compelling partly because it's just not pushing in *any* direction; it's not lazy, exactly, but you might call it *miniaturist* -- same with stash, or the awesome sally > frankie transition -- between trey's pinched compressed sound and the sparse minimalist construction and the slow-moving ambient fog that just drifts in (it's the fog that makes it an island), there's this very strong feeling of having all the time in the world, of not wanting to tear the delicate tissue.
the 2012 Dick's shows don't give me that same feeling. (you could say they don't support that *fanciful interpretation*.
but then, what's amazing about the 2012 shows, to me -- please pardon this extravagance -- is that sound like they're playing in full knowledge that they're gonna f***ing die. i mean, trey almost did, right? that's part of the point. he hit a low point and now experiences the onstage ego-loss from a totally different perspective than his 1998 incarnation. same with his bandmates: mike and page have led their own bands and started solo careers, fishman gave up the drums for a while...sounds to me like they're playing music that's fully integrated into some *other* life, whereas the '98 (and indeed fall '97) shows were this pocket universe. time is just ARRESTED during jams like roses > piper...
(maybe all i mean is that golden > caspian > light is just an outlandish run of tunes, really really accomplished improvisation, but i for one can't sink into a dream with it like i do with the island tunes, not even during the most delicate passage in light. i like to stay with it. there's no fog! it's sunlit.)
then again, i can't hear today's phish as the 19-year-old i was. i mean, a lot of shit was effortless then, but ain't anymore!
i guess my answer is: this is all very good music and it'll bathe different parts of your brain different ways, a fine thing, an irreducible thing. but the 4/5/98 gin > cities transition's a f***ing mess, happy as it makes ya. just a mess!! but we like it.
Score: 12
@spaced said:
Dick's better than the Island Tour? Seriously? No.Winner, we have a winner.
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Has .Net ever had a Final Four-style bracket competition between the various runs?
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@spaced did you attend any of these shows?
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@waxbanks said:
the 4/5/98 gin > cities transition's a f***ing mess, happy as it makes ya. just a mess!! but we like it.Have a few martinis and it sounds just exactly perfect
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1998 Island Tour included 4 performances.0% of live shows were part of this tour.
The following performances were part of this tour:
April, 1998
1998-04-02 (Nassau Coliseum, Uniondale, NY)
1998-04-03 (Nassau Coliseum, Uniondale, NY)
1998-04-04 (Providence Civic Center, Providence, RI)
1998-04-05 (Providence Civic Center, Providence, RI)
You can also view stats for the 1998 Island Tour (or try ZZYZX's stats).
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Funk cavern...delicious. Anyone care to throw Hampton/Winston-Salem into the ring, it's also a heavyweight
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I want to see if Dick's was a last stand or a great leap forward. Really excited for MSG.
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4/3/98 > 8/31/12 by a nose.
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Score: 8
island tour is way better not that dicks didnt sound great
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I'd take the Dick's Chalkdust over any Island Tour Jam, but as a whole, the Island Tour is the best run the band has ever played. Dick's isn't far behind, but the Island Tour is surpassed by none.
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Let's split the difference - the Island Tour's probably better overall, but Dick's has the better show.
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@n00b100 said: Let's split the difference - the Island Tour's probably better overall, but Dick's has the better show.Mike says no to this entire thread
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@_________________________ said: @n00b100 said:I thumbed you back up, but really? I'd think Mike would be cool with musical discourse.Let's split the difference - the Island Tour's probably better overall, but Dick's has the better show.Mike says no to this entire thread
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@n00b100 said: @_________________________ said:he told me his favorite run is Hampton 98@n00b100 said:I thumbed you back up, but really? I'd think Mike would be cool with musical discourse.Let's split the difference - the Island Tour's probably better overall, but Dick's has the better show.Mike says no to this entire thread
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@_________________________ said: @n00b100 said:That's funny, he told ME his favorite run was NYE 2003.@_________________________ said:he told me his favorite run is Hampton 98@n00b100 said:I thumbed you back up, but really? I'd think Mike would be cool with musical discourse.Let's split the difference - the Island Tour's probably better overall, but Dick's has the better show.Mike says no to this entire thread
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@Sprachtor said: @RollCactusRoll15 said:If you are suggesting its a huge nose i agree! No comparison. Island tour takes the cake any day.4/3/98 > 8/31/12 by a nose.https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn :ANd9GcQtOskMxtJjEnXgyyR5gYLB7n5tUaiOEq3aJnB6IgmPoM55hwAr
Score: 1
4/2/98 Tube. Dicks is great & will part of the Dicks collection evvery Phish fan must have. I just think the argument is which one has more musical exxploration and my preference would be Island Tour. Dickks 2012 gives a lot of hope for future Colorado Fun, they're playing funky and have been drooving hard.
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This is a joke thread right? I'm pissing my patch work pants from laughing. I'd kill to experience the island tour again. I'm not lying.
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They both have moments of pure genius. In there own way.
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The last night of Dick's is my favorite of 2012. Island Tour might be my favorite Phish.
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Dicks ain't that good
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Man, the more I read this thread the more I feel like people are personally offended this debate was even suggested, and I just cannot see why that is the case. If there's one thing I took away from @waxbanks' book, it's that letting your opinions ossify is intellectual death. Feel free to disagree with my opinion (sorry, @MiguelSanchez, I really think Dick's *is* that good) or the opinion of anyone else, but don't just dismiss opinions offhand. It's not becoming of a community with this many intelligent folks.
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@n00b100 Nobody's "personally offended" that this so-called "debate" is taking place. A lot of us just don't think that the quality of the two runs is even close. The tone of many posts (including mine) is going to reflect that, unsurprisingly. I'm not sure why you think that is equivalent to "intellectual ossification."
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All I can say is that I have seven shows in rotation right now: the Island Tour and Dick's 2012. In comparing the two runs all I can say is "They're back!"
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@spaced said: @n00b100That phrase was probably too strong. I'll try to step back a bit.
Nobody's "personally offended" that this so-called "debate" is taking place. A lot of us just don't think that the quality of the two runs is even close. The tone of many posts (including mine) is going to reflect that, unsurprisingly. I'm not sure why you think that is equivalent to "intellectual ossification."
I will admit to personal bias on this, because I do not love the Island Tour as much as a lot of others do (though I once did), but I'm legitimately confused by how much offhand dismissal (maybe even a trace of hostility?) this topic has spawned so far (cf. your quotes around "debate" in your response to me). The idea that any great run of shows is so much better than any other great run of shows, especially when those runs might as well be played by two different bands, doesn't really fit to me. When you get to the best shows, in all honesty, how much really separates Drum Logos from 11/22/97 from 4/3/98 from 8/13/93 and so on? Only our prejudices and biases towards what Phish we prefer. And I'm certainly not saying having biases in what Phish you prefer is bad; it's just human nature, ultimately. But saying "this thread is stupid, n00b" is letting your biases take over, and that is rarely pleasant. Again, if you prefer the Island Tour, totally cool. But the posting equivalent of scoffing and making the jerkoff motion with your hand? Far less cool.
Sorry if I sound combative; I am on little sleep and feeling ornery.
Score: 5
when i first started listening to the dead i asked my friend tarky to recommend some shit and i'm like WHO'S THEIR BEST PIANO PLAYER on account of (like so many people) the first show i really listened to was 5/8/77 and listening to page has spoiled mehe's like BRUCE HORNSBY so i say OK. that makes sense because
1) i've heard the dead sucked in the 80s and vince sucked too, plus
2) pigpen could barely play and by 1977 keith was mostly bullshit, and finally
3) i like contrarianism for its own sake and that sounded like it (hornsby? the pop guy?)
so i get some september 1990 and some september 1991, and track down a mix called Jamming at the Edge of Magic (which i recommend). begin digging. they played with branford? ok i liked 'englishman in new york' as much as the next c*** i'll check that out NICE
kesey eulogy for graham OH MY GOD
more facts begin to assert themselves
4) garcia was a very expressive singer but not exactly a skillful one
5) weir was a terrible singer and rather tacky
6) two drummers is one drummer too many
7) hornsby's musical showmanship is a strange fit, vince mostly may as well not be there
8) a lot of folks have been fooled into thinking phil lesh is some kind of genius
9) brent, a truly horrible ensemble singer, is a good fit with the band
blah blah blah
anyhow so i check out stuff like http://www.thebestofwebsite.com/Bands/Grateful_Dead/Live_Eras/Keith_Godchaux_3.htm
and begin to really hear some things
finally i am ready to dig into 1972-74 and: FACT ADDITIONS:
10) this is their 1997-1999
11) like in an obvious way they're peaking here technically and experimentally, the figuring-shit-out stuff from 1968-71 is all done and the Live/Dead mannerism is behind them in favour of this cool integrated organic approach and by 1974 they're playing effortlessly, and when donna's got decent mic/monitor support she and garcia sound fantastic together, my dislike for her Scarlet/Playin' moaning notwithstanding
12) in comparison they sound SO TIRED in the early 90s, damn
AAAAAANYWAY
so some years pass and after listening almost exclusively to their 1972-1978 stuff i realize that i'm being silly and start to dig into their 80s/90s catalogue again. because time passes and people too.
now we enter, i hope, into a state of RELEVANCE TO THIS CONVERSATION.
because coming back to the dead's 1990-91 stuff with hornsby, and their late-80s brent material, i'm FINALLY hearing something deeper there, and having this thought:
*** they are obviously no longer at their peak in any sense, really
*** but leaving the peak has taken them down into the earth
*** which is home
the band is nowhere near as fluent in those later performances, they're not revolutionizing anything and it's not effortless but it's so unbelievably deep and emotional -- try and imagine a 25-year-old doing justice to STANDING ON THE MOON for christ's sake, then listen to 9/16/90 (DP9) he's gone > d/s > standing and weep --
from the *sound* of those recordings alone i can't sink into them the way i do with 1972-74 (hello pattern recognition) but when they dig they dig hard, and...
being with older people who are sharing what they have learned
is a precious powerful experience and a blessing.
as for letting opinions ossify i'm guiltier than i'd like to be but maybe it's not even about the intellectual exercise of addressing consciously your thoughts and reasoning about a thing, so much as the emotional exercise (bliss) of unmooring yourself from the identity that thought Liking the Best Thing was so f***ing important when you were a teenager (this period might well last 20 years or more)
it's hard to think your way to good feelings and happiness, but trying to be happy (i mean peaceful) is not a bad way to clear cognitive ground for sharp thoughts
crimson, white, and indigo
i mean f*** that's actually tacky too -- looking at the earth and seeing the colours of the american flag is daft -- and then he's moaning about el salvador afterward
but
tarky told me about this girl gave him a copy of robert hunter's lyrics book, A BOX OF RAIN which i too have and adore, and she broke up with his ass but months or years later gave him the book and wrote these lyrics on the front page
A LOVELY VIEW OF HEAVEN
BUT I'D RATHER BE WITH YOU
which is bracing and grown up, i think, and reading those words i wanna hold something beautiful and take a moment to say and cherish its name
even just friendship or some shit, whatever,
and i sense that that inscription caused feelings of deep ambivalence for my boy. know what i mean? but he's married with a baby on the way now and would you give up the next song you hear to go back and listen again to something you once were? seriously? i really hope not. a baby on the way! i hope it likes jam band music, damn
the island tour is a display of extraordinary proficiency and ease and i love the fog. it is perfect of its kind. then there's golden age > caspian > light which is passage to rock'n'roll afterlife (funk moves then children in their caves then a light growing brighter but how would you know? you can weep with that too)
offense isn't some you decide to take, or not. why not NOT
Score: 4
@spaced said: @n00b100which quality is that?
Nobody's "personally offended" that this so-called "debate" is taking place. A lot of us just don't think that the quality of the two runs is even close.
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@n00b100Gotcha. Sorry if my response was also a bit prickly. The reason I put scare quotes around "debate" was because, as the OP said, the original purpose of the thread wasn't to compare the two runs (though it was kind of inevitable), plus there really hasn't been much in-depth debate in this thread.
That's also what made me a bit snippy in response to the "intellectual ossification" remark, since it seemed to presume (a) that there was an existing level of high discourse in the thread that was being lowered by island tour partisans, and (b) that there isn't any kind of considered judgment behind said incredulous comments.
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I would just like to reemphasize the original, positive point that the Dicks run is WILDLY unique and awesome. Again, you have to go back 14 years to find 3 or more consecutive shows rated that highly. When I started looking into this, I just assumed there was going to be a string of shows 4.5+ in one of the intermediate years, but there wasn't.
Dicks has 2 shows in the top - what? - 3-5%(?) or so shows of all time (and 3 in the top 10-15%?). The Island tour has 4. And both have pretty significant exposure and voting sample size. Those are the "facts" which don't really matter other than - again - just to highlight how incredible of a run we just got to experience.
Dicks has 2 shows in the top - what? - 3-5%(?) or so shows of all time (and 3 in the top 10-15%?). The Island tour has 4. And both have pretty significant exposure and voting sample size. Those are the "facts" which don't really matter other than - again - just to highlight how incredible of a run we just got to experience.
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@waxbanks said: @spaced said:The quality of me subjectively preferring it. To be clear, I don't think there's anything objective or high-minded about these sorts of "which is better" comparisons, and nothing that privileges my opinions. I'm sure they'll change as I have more time to listen to Dick's over the coming years and put it in historical context, etc., but it seems a bit premature to say it's better than what is generally thought of as one of the top 2 or 3 runs in Phish history. That's where people's dismissiveness comes from, I'd guess (certainly for me at least).@n00b100which quality is that?
Nobody's "personally offended" that this so-called "debate" is taking place. A lot of us just don't think that the quality of the two runs is even close.
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@spaced said: @n00b100No worries. It really is hard to get an in-depth debate about something like this, because at the core every argument boils down to "I personally like (x) more than (y) based on my own unrepeatable set of experiences and preferences"; it's fun to see why people prefer x to y, but getting much further can be tough. And yeah, I should not have presumed that every such reaction was just knee-jerk. Mea culpa.
Gotcha. Sorry if my response was also a bit prickly. The reason I put scare quotes around "debate" was because, as the OP said, the original purpose of the thread wasn't to compare the two runs (though it was kind of inevitable), plus there really hasn't been much in-depth debate in this thread.
That's also what made me a bit snippy in response to the "intellectual ossification" remark, since it seemed to presume (a) that there was an existing level of high discourse in the thread that was being lowered by island tour partisans, and (b) that there isn't any kind of considered judgment behind said incredulous comments.
Glad we're cool. I'm uncomfortable being at loggerheads with someone with the good sense to have Spaceman Spiff as his avatar.
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@n00b100 said: Glad we're cool. I'm uncomfortable being at loggerheads with someone with the good sense to have Spaceman Spiff as his avatar.Well, being an Ohio State grad, I can't in good conscience say correspondingly nice things about your avatar, and maybe given our alma maters we're destined to fight to the death at some point, but I always enjoy your posts and show reviews. I probably just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I definitely got up too early, that's for sure.
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@n00b100 said: Man, the more I read this thread the more I feel like people are personally offended this debate was even suggested, and I just cannot see why that is the case. If there's one thing I took away from @waxbanks' book, it's that letting your opinions ossify is intellectual death. Feel free to disagree with my opinion (sorry, @MiguelSanchez, I really think Dick's *is* that good) or the opinion of anyone else, but don't just dismiss opinions offhand. It's not becoming of a community with this many intelligent folks.Player, I don't care which you like better. It's opinion. You will never see ME get upset because of differing opinions on phish. Even if you think prince caspian is good.
Score: 1
Come on. How can you deny troy's chicken strut.starting at 7:15
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@spaced said: @waxbanks said:cool cool. i gotcha.@spaced said:The quality of me subjectively preferring it. To be clear, I don't think there's anything objective or high-minded about these sorts of "which is better" comparisons, and nothing that privileges my opinions. I'm sure they'll change as I have more time to listen to Dick's over the coming years and put it in historical context, etc., but it seems a bit premature to say it's better than what is generally thought of as one of the top 2 or 3 runs in Phish history. That's where people's dismissiveness comes from, I'd guess (certainly for me at least).@n00b100which quality is that?
Nobody's "personally offended" that this so-called "debate" is taking place. A lot of us just don't think that the quality of the two runs is even close.
having said that -- in terms of such comparisons being 'premature,' if any such comparison is ultimately *just* subjective and mostly bunk anyway, if the point of the exercise is for all involved to throw light on how we think about this music (and to share that light), then what difference does it make *when* it happens? the shows were played three months ago, folks have listened a *lot* to the Dick's run by now (i have to capitalize it so it doesn't look super weird to me), and we're not really talking about 'historical significance,' so i figure we can jump right to what i'm told are goethe's questions --
what were they trying to do?
how well did they do it?
was it worth doing?
-- and compare the results of those questions. or just stick to talking about your own being-with-the-music which is awesome too, even if everyone hates everyone else deep down.
in any case, it looks like the OP wasn't originally about ranking, just comparison, which i took to mean really 'contrast.' make the dark darker and the light brighter by juxtaposition, and all that.
and speaking a little to @n00b100's points, lots of dudes think 'the island run is unique and beautiful' but bind it to 'i shouldn't have to examine my preferences' and that sucks; but talking empathetically about taste hopefully loosens everyone's hold on their tastes (or vice versa), which is good, so it's worth hitting back when dudes are like 'that's a stupid comparison.'
soooooo then Why would @ekstewie1441 even ask this question? ok, to get people chatting about phish which is nice, but deeper than that, why (else)? how can it *help*? and is it actually helpful to say 'i don't like A anywhere near as much as B' without trying to draw a line between them? by that last question i guess i'm prodding you to talk about what you prefer, and i'll throw in a request to help me understand what the f*** 'top 2 or 3 runs in history' even means.
i mean i've got the things i like most, or most consistently, but i'm interested in hearing how other folks come to theirs.
Score: 1
@MiguelSanchez said: @n00b100 said:Well, that Caspian from Dicks was amazing.Man, the more I read this thread the more I feel like people are personally offended this debate was even suggested, and I just cannot see why that is the case. If there's one thing I took away from @waxbanks' book, it's that letting your opinions ossify is intellectual death. Feel free to disagree with my opinion (sorry, @MiguelSanchez, I really think Dick's *is* that good) or the opinion of anyone else, but don't just dismiss opinions offhand. It's not becoming of a community with this many intelligent folks.Player, I don't care which you like better. It's opinion. You will never see ME get upset because of differing opinions on phish. Even if you think prince caspian is good.
Score: 1
@SaltyDog said: @MiguelSanchez said:For sure. There's always exceptions to the rule... Haha@n00b100 said:Well, that Caspian from Dicks was amazing.Man, the more I read this thread the more I feel like people are personally offended this debate was even suggested, and I just cannot see why that is the case. If there's one thing I took away from @waxbanks' book, it's that letting your opinions ossify is intellectual death. Feel free to disagree with my opinion (sorry, @MiguelSanchez, I really think Dick's *is* that good) or the opinion of anyone else, but don't just dismiss opinions offhand. It's not becoming of a community with this many intelligent folks.Player, I don't care which you like better. It's opinion. You will never see ME get upset because of differing opinions on phish. Even if you think prince caspian is good.
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