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"@anastacia129 said:
"@timkell said:
"@anastacia129 said:
"Phish's loyal fanbase makes us an easy target for scalpers because they know (based on other bands' following) we are far more likely to put up the extra money to be there.
The premium seats being resold directly from the ticket seller website is affecting all artists who seem as powerless as we are, or they're getting a kickback, either way that whole process should be illegal IMO.
Add that to the fact that during ptbm and public on sales you have multiple people from every "crew" putting in for a massive amount of tickets, you're going to have situations like this. Luckily the extras eventually end up in our hands but obviously you can't count on that.
I normally put in for best available on ptbm and have been getting Tix to every show I want to see except this year I got totally shut out.
Managed to pull Friday fields from the public on sale which puts me in a bad position because I need to come up with sat/sun to make the trip worth it and therefore are more willing to pay extra for the tickets.
It seems no matter what process they have, it would be impossible to vet fans from scalpers, and you'd still have the issue of multiple people pulling Tix they won't use, which I totally understand why they do it. Everybody wants the best seats.
It's unfortunately something that has no easy fix but at least as a general rule, phans are trying to put their extras in the hands of fellow phans without making a profit. "
Don't take this personally, but this post is a whole lot of nonsense. Every tour people bitch and moan about ticket hoarders. Exactly how many idiots out of the entire population of Phish ticket buyers do you think would do this? 15 posts on CoT does not move markets.
There is plenty of nonsense in the online sales, and that's a problem. Still seems to be brokers who have some methods of obtaining large quantities of tickets.
But anyone actually "strategically" spending a ton of money on concerts he has no plan to attend (and I'll say he because I just can't fathom there's a woman stupid enough to attempt such a foolish thing) in some fantasy of turning all of these useless tickets into ticket gold for other shows is a moron. Even if this escapade proves 100% successful, you have wasted hours upon hours trying to fend off losing hundreds of dollars for no reason whatsoever.
Now, if you had planned on hitting the whole tour, and you put in for the max allotment for every show, there's a damn good chance you would have extra to some shows and be short others. That doesn't make that person a hoarder.
Hoarders are not greedy evil bastards. They are idiots who very often lose money putting their extras in ticket trees, if they even exist at all.
"
I know you probably like to think that the majority of people going to shows aren't selfish enough to do this so-called "hoarding" behavior. I used to think that too. Especially during the 1.0 era I thought if people were fans of Phish, they were my kind of people. Is that stupid? Maybe. But since I started going to shows again in 2015, I have witnessed some of the most rude and selfish behavior I've ever experienced at any shows, including Phish. I walked away from scenes like that wondering if I was just so f***ed up I didn't realize it wasn't as peace-loving as I thought it was, or if the people had in fact changed. I can't tell you for sure which it is, but it's disappointing to say the least. So do I think there's enough of the Phish population that really doesn't give a shit about anyone but themselves and has the ability to make a dent in the ticket availability by hoarding? Absolutely. Especially with the development of premier seats where even more tickets are being withheld. To deny there's enough of this type of behavior is, I think, slightly naive considering the small amount of shows being played and people's love of this band. "
Unless you're wearing a tinfoil hat, you should re-read your post and ask yourself if you have any evidence whatsoever that this is true. Second, you completely ignored the point of my post.
Anyone with half a brain who is part of the online Phish community would do one of two things:
Option 1:
-Request the tickets they want through PTBM and TM.
-Upon failure, work hard to try to obtain tickets through CoT, .net, etc.
-When all else fails either give up or pay above face
Option 2:
-Request tons of ticket through PTBM and TM
-sell extras on StubHub etc.
Why in the hell would someone hoard tickets only to exchange them each for face? It's stupid. Carrying 30 tickets that you don't need carries a lot of risk. If you sell one for twice it's cost you've reduced your risk. If you are "hoarding" tickets" you are buying a bunch of tickets in order to sell them above face.
Think about it. Forget your "morals". Do you really think you would ever be dumb enough to spend $3000 in hopes of making sure you got good seats to 4 shows?
EDIT: And if there are people dumb enough to do this, how many do you think there are that do this?
EDIT 2: If you were willing to risk $3k on four Phish shows, would you just buy tickets on StubHub or go through all the trouble of an alleged ticket hoarder?"
Ok I took off my tinfoil hat and re-read your reply.
How many idiots would do this?
In my experience, there's a lot of people. Not necessarily idiots, but a little selfish.
How many extra tickets bought in the quest for the seats you want, would be considered hoarding?
We'd definitely have to agree on this to continue the debate.
Agreed, online sales are nonsense and subject to abuse for many reasons.
You cite the waste of time as the main reason any smart person wouldn't hoard, it's too much bother to get rid of unused Tix. Maybe, but who knows if everyone sees it as a waste of time. They would have to believe it wasn't a waste of money initially, so there's that.
Strategically buying high demand Tix, even though they won't attend? Of course! It's great leverage.
Again, the issue of what amount of extras constitutes a hoard? Not sure. Why buy extras at all? If everyone does this, it will decrease odds of people getting Tix at all.
Hoarders are not evil bastards. No. But if I end up having to spend 100$ over face to go because everyone else simply wanted to increase their odds, then I wouldn't consider them my best buddy right now. Grrr.
Evidence? I guess all the crappy extras people are currently trying to unload would be a good indication.
Why hoard to exchange for face? I'm pretty sure I already covered this, but the only reason I can think of is for trade leverage on bad seats. Minimal risk considering Phish isn't doing many shows. We're starving for Phish!!!
3k on seats to 4 shows? Where'd this amount come from? Is this the true definition of hoarding? Again, we probably need to vote on this or something. I think hoarding is taking more than you need. But who knows.
My morals? Why would they come into play here?
You keep asking how many people I think are doing this. I don't have a clue. Everybody has an excuse for why they have extras, "my crew" blah blah blah. It's all so dramatic.
I don't know. I'm one of those people that requests what I need, buys what I don't get over face, and is just thankful to be there.
@timkell said:
"@anastacia129 said:
"@timkell said:
"@anastacia129 said:
"Phish's loyal fanbase makes us an easy target for scalpers because they know (based on other bands' following) we are far more likely to put up the extra money to be there.
The premium seats being resold directly from the ticket seller website is affecting all artists who seem as powerless as we are, or they're getting a kickback, either way that whole process should be illegal IMO.
Add that to the fact that during ptbm and public on sales you have multiple people from every "crew" putting in for a massive amount of tickets, you're going to have situations like this. Luckily the extras eventually end up in our hands but obviously you can't count on that.
I normally put in for best available on ptbm and have been getting Tix to every show I want to see except this year I got totally shut out.
Managed to pull Friday fields from the public on sale which puts me in a bad position because I need to come up with sat/sun to make the trip worth it and therefore are more willing to pay extra for the tickets.
It seems no matter what process they have, it would be impossible to vet fans from scalpers, and you'd still have the issue of multiple people pulling Tix they won't use, which I totally understand why they do it. Everybody wants the best seats.
It's unfortunately something that has no easy fix but at least as a general rule, phans are trying to put their extras in the hands of fellow phans without making a profit. "
Don't take this personally, but this post is a whole lot of nonsense. Every tour people bitch and moan about ticket hoarders. Exactly how many idiots out of the entire population of Phish ticket buyers do you think would do this? 15 posts on CoT does not move markets.
There is plenty of nonsense in the online sales, and that's a problem. Still seems to be brokers who have some methods of obtaining large quantities of tickets.
But anyone actually "strategically" spending a ton of money on concerts he has no plan to attend (and I'll say he because I just can't fathom there's a woman stupid enough to attempt such a foolish thing) in some fantasy of turning all of these useless tickets into ticket gold for other shows is a moron. Even if this escapade proves 100% successful, you have wasted hours upon hours trying to fend off losing hundreds of dollars for no reason whatsoever.
Now, if you had planned on hitting the whole tour, and you put in for the max allotment for every show, there's a damn good chance you would have extra to some shows and be short others. That doesn't make that person a hoarder.
Hoarders are not greedy evil bastards. They are idiots who very often lose money putting their extras in ticket trees, if they even exist at all.
"
I know you probably like to think that the majority of people going to shows aren't selfish enough to do this so-called "hoarding" behavior. I used to think that too. Especially during the 1.0 era I thought if people were fans of Phish, they were my kind of people. Is that stupid? Maybe. But since I started going to shows again in 2015, I have witnessed some of the most rude and selfish behavior I've ever experienced at any shows, including Phish. I walked away from scenes like that wondering if I was just so f***ed up I didn't realize it wasn't as peace-loving as I thought it was, or if the people had in fact changed. I can't tell you for sure which it is, but it's disappointing to say the least. So do I think there's enough of the Phish population that really doesn't give a shit about anyone but themselves and has the ability to make a dent in the ticket availability by hoarding? Absolutely. Especially with the development of premier seats where even more tickets are being withheld. To deny there's enough of this type of behavior is, I think, slightly naive considering the small amount of shows being played and people's love of this band. "
Unless you're wearing a tinfoil hat, you should re-read your post and ask yourself if you have any evidence whatsoever that this is true. Second, you completely ignored the point of my post.
Anyone with half a brain who is part of the online Phish community would do one of two things:
Option 1:
-Request the tickets they want through PTBM and TM.
-Upon failure, work hard to try to obtain tickets through CoT, .net, etc.
-When all else fails either give up or pay above face
Option 2:
-Request tons of ticket through PTBM and TM
-sell extras on StubHub etc.
Why in the hell would someone hoard tickets only to exchange them each for face? It's stupid. Carrying 30 tickets that you don't need carries a lot of risk. If you sell one for twice it's cost you've reduced your risk. If you are "hoarding" tickets" you are buying a bunch of tickets in order to sell them above face.
Think about it. Forget your "morals". Do you really think you would ever be dumb enough to spend $3000 in hopes of making sure you got good seats to 4 shows?
EDIT: And if there are people dumb enough to do this, how many do you think there are that do this?
EDIT 2: If you were willing to risk $3k on four Phish shows, would you just buy tickets on StubHub or go through all the trouble of an alleged ticket hoarder?"
Your main point was that there's not enough people doing this to make a difference. How would you know? Your opinion is: only an idiot would hoard tickets, yada yada, and furthermore, it makes no sense. I disagree. There's a lot of selfish people who think any ends justify the means, especially if it's something they love. So be it. Hopefully they sell extras for face. More power to them. A lot of factors are leading to hard to get tickets. Hoarding is probably one of those. Why get so upset about that suggestion? I really don't see the point in arguing about it.
What constitutes hoarding seems to be different to everyone. I think ordering over the amount you need is attempting to beat the system, a lot of people do it for different reasons, and that takes away from someone else just simply getting in. I'm one of those people. I'm just happy to be there. I think people that will just DIE if they don't get a floor seat are too dramatic. They want to increase their chances by decreasing someone else's. It's bullshit. End rant. I do hope you have a delightful evening, or morning... cheers!